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Offensive games format.

Posted by Sean Kim, Student on team #115 from Monta Vista High School and NASA Ames.

Posted on 5/5/99 6:53 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: Or we could try the easy way... posted by P.J. Baker on 5/5/99 10:42 AM MST:



= )

I see that you like the way the competition was offense-based!

Hmm..
I don't think, however, that the format of Double Trouble itself is very defense-oriented.
For example, there was the puck. Robots pushed the puck around to double their score or to reduce other team's score by half.
This is certainly defense-based.
Raising the floppy and trying to press other robot's basket. That's certainly defense-based.

Right?

I actually think that offense-based game would be fun!
FIRST, in my opinion, has never held the game that was offense-based.
If the game should be offensive, there should be many many many ways of scoring.
We had basically 3 ways of scoring this year. Floppy, Getting on the puck, and pushing the puck.
Most of the alliances were able to to all three tasks very well. That means one alliance had to play defense to keep one of these 3 taks on their score.

What if we don't have to worry about that kind of stuff?
What if there are 150 ways to score point?
There can't be an alliance that can do all that 150 tasks in 2 minutes.
This would be more fun to watch.

50 ways to score 1 or 2 or 3 points 10 ways to triple your points and 30 ways to double your point.
30 ways to half your opponent's points. and so on.

I guess this will be more attractive to the mass because it has more points, right?

So what do you think?

kison


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one on zero...?

Posted by Daniel, Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Henry M Gunn Senior High School and NASA Ames.

Posted on 5/5/99 7:00 PM MST


In Reply to: Offensive games format. posted by Sean Kim on 5/5/99 6:53 PM MST:



I think it's really cool to see these 'bots interact.

Adding hundreds of ways to score points would simply make it a timed race. What would become of strategy? Everyone’s goal would simply be to “go get ‘em and get ‘em fast”. Why would there even need to be more than one robot on the field at a time?

Personally I think it's much more entertaining and 'inspiring' to see these ‘bots duke it out for two mins.


Just my take
-Daniel

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10 minutes between rounds?

Posted by Mike King, Other on team #88, TJ˛, from Bridgewater Raynham and Johnson & Johnson Professional.

Posted on 5/6/99 4:35 PM MST


In Reply to: Offensive games format. posted by Sean Kim on 5/5/99 6:53 PM MST:



My take on this is the following:

Everyone is complaining that first takes too long between each match. Most of this time is the Referee's scoring the round. Adding over 150 ways to score ain't gonna help this problem.

Mike
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Re: Or we could try the easy way...

Posted by David Kelso, Coach on team #131, C.H.A.O.S.-, from Central High School and OSRAM SYLVANIA/ Fleet Bank.

Posted on 5/6/99 4:29 AM MST


In Reply to: Or we could try the easy way... posted by Daniel on 5/4/99 9:15 PM MST:



I know I have said this before too. Come up with a game
that has near INSTANT score results at the end of the game
That would save tremendous time with the same amount of
refs, fields etc. and then you get more matches.

: I know I've said this before, but sit tight cuz I'm gonna say it again.


: It is a well known statistical fact that luck is eliminated with increased trials. We need increased trials!

: If one 540 match can put a lucky robot into the select sixteen, and similarly one 8 point round can pull a select sixteen team from that coveted position, there is obviously a problem. You have all acknowledged this in your posts. The solution is to increase the trials!

: How do we fix it? More arenas. More time.

: I saw someone suggest an extra day. This costs more, but it may not be such a bad tradeoff. We all want more matches. Don't you think those 80+ hour all-nighters would be better requited with more than six matches? Seriously, we put our lives into this thing.

: More arenas would mean a big headache for FIRST and less time between matches. Unless another day is added. Once again, it may be worth the costs.

: Personally, I think adding a third alliance partner is merely a way to avoid the issue. It works to a point, but it reduces the amount of matches some team gets to play. In essence, it makes the situation worse. No mater how well a teams bot performs, they deserve some play time. We all deserve to play. Remember what FIRST stands for...

: And as for practicing for the finals, that also seems a little contrived. It's human nature to try to find reasons to support our opinions so I don't blame you, but it didn't really seem like an issue to me. It's not something you need too much practice for. I know my team didn't have a problem with it.

:
: Just some thoughts from the guy who's got too many...
: -Daniel


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No way!

Posted by colleen, Student on team #126, Gael Force, from Clinton High School and Nypro.

Posted on 5/4/99 10:10 PM MST


In Reply to: Crazy Idea, looking for comments posted by Joe Johnson on 5/4/99 7:58 PM MST:




you can't help but realized this may totally eliminate teams from playing at all!! after six weeks of tons of hardwork, you show up at the national and are 'negotiated' out of every QM you have... and if you never play, who's going to pick you as a partner?

i'm still see no real reason for the tri-alliance in the elimination matches, but definitely keep out of it in the qualifying.. i think rank shows more closely the ability of individual robots to perform, and making three teams per match would make that impossible to judge as well..

i am 110% con on that one.. if i'm going to put in all that work, i can at least be guaranteed 6 matches..

that's what i think


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Re: Crazy Idea, looking for comments

Posted by Andrew Trax, Coach on team #180, S.P.A.M., from Southfork,Martin Co. High and UTC.

Posted on 5/5/99 3:47 AM MST


In Reply to: Crazy Idea, looking for comments posted by Joe Johnson on 5/4/99 7:58 PM MST:



Three team alliances in which one team sits the bench? Nope, I don't like
it - strongly. Some teams would never get a chance to even try. I'd almost
rather go to Reionals as eliminations for a National to weed out weaker
robots than to have teams shut out entirely. Or even repeat this year's format.
And it's bad enough that some teams wouldn't play because they built a barely
functional machine. The bigger tragedy would be the teams with great robots
that sit out because they're rookies, don't have the name recognition of some
of the veteran teams, end up paired with two others from the same city or
corporation... We like to think that it's all about ability. But there is
a 'political undercurrent' that would banish some good teams to the bench.
With 200+ teams competing it's almost impossible to scope out every machine, see
everyone play, before making alliance decisions. So some choices would have
to be based on something other than pure ability.
Let's add a day to Nationals and go back to double eliminations. Put as many
robots on the field as you want. But let each win or lose on their own merit.

Opinionatedly,
Mrs. Trax





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call me crazy

Posted by Andy Grady, Coach on team #42, P.A.R.T.S, from Alvirne High School and Daniel Webster College.

Posted on 5/5/99 10:02 AM MST


In Reply to: Crazy Idea, looking for comments posted by Joe Johnson on 5/4/99 7:58 PM MST:



I would have to go against this one for the same reason everyone else is, this would give some teams no chance to play at all. I would rather go out onto the field and have my alliance partner no-show knowing that they tried their best to get their machine out on the field, than see teams sidelined because no one would give them a chance. Sometimes just seeing your robot out on the field moving or not, gives you a proud feeling of accomplishment. Call me crazy, but im an old-fashioned guy, I want to see the return of 1 on 1 on 1 play, maybe even 4 teams all against each other.
Cya all later,
Andy Grady, DWC/Alvirne


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4 teams battle- now that would be cool

Posted by colleen, Student on team #126, Gael Force, from Clinton High School and Nypro.

Posted on 5/5/99 3:24 PM MST


In Reply to: call me crazy posted by Andy Grady on 5/5/99 10:02 AM MST:




maybe it's cause andy and i are original products of the same team, but i definitely have to agree with him. i like the alliance, they were cool, for a year, but i kinda of wish i could have driven my last competition head-to-head, may the one best robot win...every competition's going to have it's faults.. and you can see that there were several with the alliance idea.. and so i think we should revert back to the 1 on 1.. even if there are four robots one the field.. imagine the competition that would have made?!!

so i think..


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rug rage

Posted by Joe Johnson, Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 5/5/99 7:33 PM MST


In Reply to: 4 teams battle- now that would be cool posted by colleen on 5/5/99 3:24 PM MST:



Any grey beards out there want to take on this 4 teams at once, each team on its own idea?

I have seen the videos from Rug Rage. It looked to me like a lot of matches ended up with 2 robots locked in a defensive death struggle while the other two racked up points.

What was it like for teams that actually played the game?

Do tell...

Joe J.


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Re: rug rage

Posted by Tim Murray, Student on team #126, Gael Force, from Clinton High School and NYPRO inc..

Posted on 5/5/99 7:42 PM MST


In Reply to: rug rage posted by Joe Johnson on 5/5/99 7:33 PM MST:



Joe,

You're absolutely right. That was the way that the
competition went. The stories that I hear are that
we came in as defending champs and won a mini
tournament called the massachusetts showdown between
the 6 Massachusetts teams, back in the day when massachusetts
was the michigan of FIRST. The next day, a team
came out with practically a cardboard box with wooden
wheels pinned us in a corner and we didn't move.
This was the same for many other teams. i meant to
reply from the post earlier about 1 on 1 on 1 on 1 matches.
FIRST changed the competition format because of the
many flaws involved with 4 team matches dealing with every
man for himself.

Tim



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Rug Rage eh?

Posted by Jon, Engineer on team #190, Gompei, from Mass Academy of Math and Science and Worcester Polytechnic Institute.

Posted on 5/6/99 11:50 AM MST


In Reply to: rug rage posted by Joe Johnson on 5/5/99 7:33 PM MST:



Can someone summarize Rug Rage for us young'ens with only a year or two of FIRST behind us...
was it 4 teams individual? how did it play?

Jonathan


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Hey, I'm just following orders...

Posted by Daniel, Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Henry M Gunn Senior High School and NASA Ames.

Posted on 5/5/99 6:17 PM MST


In Reply to: call me crazy posted by Andy Grady on 5/5/99 10:02 AM MST:



You're crazy! =)

I can understand your point of view, but I gotta say the strategy and defense involved with this year's game was great! More entertaining to watch, and more entertaining to play. FIRST has really made a breakthrough with this one...

I would never want them to go back to single robots.


-Daniel


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Re: Hey, I'm just following orders...

Posted by Andy Grady, Coach on team #42, P.A.R.T.S, from Alvirne High School and Daniel Webster College.

Posted on 5/5/99 8:23 PM MST


In Reply to: Hey, I'm just following orders... posted by Daniel on 5/5/99 6:17 PM MST:



I would have to agree with you that alliances did bring an exiting new point of strategy to the game, and the matches were very exiting to watch. But I am a little soured because we were ranked 4th going into our last match, and our alliance partner no-showed, after that match we were knocked all the way down to 18. Now im not blaming anything on our partner at the time, they tried their best, but i feel that this is the perfect example of how the system was a little screwy. But thats just my opinion
cya all later,
Andy Grady, DWC/Alvirne


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Re: Hey, I'm just following orders...

Posted by Elaine Anselm, Engineer on team #191, X-Cats, from Jos Wilson High School and Xerox.

Posted on 5/5/99 8:54 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: Hey, I'm just following orders... posted by Andy Grady on 5/5/99 8:23 PM MST:



Andy -
You came to the competition with a phenominal team,
with a great robot,
at one point you made it to 4th ranked,
were picked as an alliance partner by another terrific team
placed 10th in the competition with your alliance partners

And you are soured?

What more would you (or anyone else out there) get out of FIRST by coming in 9th place or 1st or were ranked #1

I know a lot of kids who did not get beyond your first accomplishment and felt FIRST was the most wonderful experience of their lives

My intent is not to offend, just to point out that we all need to keep a little perspective here. It is easy to lose perspective when you care so much about somethong as we all do about FIRST.

It' my belief however that if winning becomes the end, every FIRST participant loses.

My 2 cents

Elaine



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Re: Hey, I'm just following orders...

Posted by Andrew Trax, Coach on team #180, S.P.A.M., from Southfork,Martin Co. High and UTC.

Posted on 5/6/99 4:17 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: Hey, I'm just following orders... posted by Elaine Anselm on 5/5/99 8:54 PM MST:



I can completely sympathize with Andy G. Don't take it to mean that being
soured on the game means being soured on FIRST. But just step back and image
how it felt to sit 1st place Thurs., stay near the top 10 Fri., sit
at 10th until your last match Saturday in which you're paired with a tin can
on wheels (not the box on wheels), slip to 19th and NOT make it to finals.
We were pretty certain that we'd either finish top 16, or be a first round pick.
It was disappointing. And packing up the robot before finals? I couldn't
watch. And it had nothing to do with winning - it had everything to do with
staying in the game.
We had an incredibly good robot. 19th seed out of 207 is a great finish.
We were 6th seed at Kennedy.
And it felt as though no one noticed. Why?
As we were packing up, other teams came by to offer consolations - they
didn't realize we had slipped out of the top 16 and had expected us to be
pickers - not pickees - so our number wasn't on their lists. Having the
ranking board down during match 6 didn't help either. About the time the board
came back online, the student reps were heading to the stage.
Soured on the game, this game? Yes, I am. I dare anyone to tell me that
we shouldn't have felt disappointment.
But soured on FIRST? Not at all. It's still new and if one game doesn't
suit you, there's always next year.

Mrs. Trax




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