Go to Post remember FIRST is just an extracuricular activity in which most of the work is technichan's work...what gets you into college are good grades and a good course load...as my mom always said, "getting good grades gives you the freedom to chose to be whatever you want and go wherever you want" - abeD [more]
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Re: Hey, I'm just following orders...

Posted by Mike Kulibaba, Student on team #88, TJ², from Bridgewater-Raynham Regional and Johnson and Johnson.

Posted on 5/6/99 10:55 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: Hey, I'm just following orders... posted by Andrew Trax on 5/6/99 4:17 AM MST:



I think you have all the right in the world to be dissapointed, I don't think anyone wants to come home with anything less then the national championship and that is the way I think it should be. I think 204 teams should be atleast a little dissappointed that they didn't win. I'm dissapointed that my team didn't win it all even though we seeded first. The score board crashing was a big problem, if I had time i was going to look at the teams that were in the top 25 and go talk to there team but with the scoreboard down i just didn't have the time. I remember reading a couple messages back that someone said something pertaining to FIRST isn't about winning and I'd like to agree and disagree with that. I do agree that winning is not the most important thing, the most important thing is that kids learn about engineering, technology and teamwork, but I don't help out for a grueling 6 weeks to lose, Everytime our robot goes out I'm happy that it is out there and I marvel at the accomplishments that my team made, but they when that buzzer sounds for the next two minutes all i can think about is winning that match. It was a great honor for my team to be the number one seed, but I would of came in 16th if it meant we won the championship. But hey this is just my opinion. Thanks for listening

Kuli Team 88 TJ²



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Re: Hey, I'm just following orders...

Posted by Elaine Anselm, Engineer on team #191, X-Cats, from Jos Wilson High School and Xerox.

Posted on 5/6/99 1:23 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: Hey, I'm just following orders... posted by Mike Kulibaba on 5/6/99 10:55 AM MST:



Disappointed when you get eliminated - absolutely! You have the right to feel any way you want for as long as you want.

I am in agreement, it is disappointing when you don’t do what you set out to do. For most FIRST teams that is winning the National Championship. It was certainly one of our goals. You need to feel like a winner to be a winner. For those 2 minutes during a match, all you can think about is winning the match. It’s is emotional and feels really bad when your name is not listed under the 1st place finisher. I have comforted many kids (and adults) when we've been eliminated. We get very emotional, but you let out the emotion and get over it.

Did we ever lose - nope - we cannot lose. If I thought we could, I would be devastated and I probably wouldn’t stick around for more than 1 year (I’ve done this for 8 now and am looking forward to the kickoff 8 months from now).

It's all in the attitude.
You may think it’s corny, and you are entitled to your opinion, but I don't see it as corny.
Our team came away from the weekend feeling like a million dollars.
The disappointed feeling for us was over 30 minutes after the last match.



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Re: Hey, I'm just following orders...

Posted by Mike Kulibaba, Student on team #88, TJ², from Bridgewater-Raynham Regional and Johnson and Johnson.

Posted on 5/6/99 5:07 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: Hey, I'm just following orders... posted by Elaine Anselm on 5/6/99 1:23 PM MST:



It's not corny at all, you are exactly right. There is a time to move on, it's just longer for me then most people. I am dissappointed that we didn't win but in no way would I change the good time I had that weekend. The emotion that goes into this competition is more then anything else I have ever done. I am dissapointed but as you said, we didn't lose, none of the teams that got there and had a working robot are losers, they all did something that most people will never get a chance to do, I'm proud of everyone that was there for putting in the time and effort that they did, I've done this for 4 years and it gets tougher and tougher each year( I have the utmost respect for you for doing this for 8 years and still going strong). And I'm probably be over my disappointment when my team gets to the rumble. And then if we don't win that then I'll be dissapointed again, but just cause I might be disappointed it won't stop me from having a good time. And in the end I'll get over it, I always tell myself there is always next year. I hope after 8 years I feel the way you do, I totally agree that I have to get over my disappointment. On a ligher note, I just want to say thank you to the X-Cats, when my team started our first year, the X-Cats were one of the teams that I looked up to because you guys showed us how to be gracious professionals in everything we did. I remember after my first year, Team 191 was my favorite team because they showed me what FIRST is all about.




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I can relate

Posted by Kate Leach, Student on team #166, Team Merrimack, from Merrimack High School and Unitrode / RS Machines.

Posted on 5/7/99 1:06 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: Hey, I'm just following orders... posted by Elaine Anselm on 5/6/99 1:23 PM MST:



I can *totally* relate to getting your emotions out and moving on.. Happened to me at the Mid-Atlantic regionals.. One of the robots down there was just out to break robots cuz they didn't really have their working at the time.. Well, we were about the 5th robot that they had broken during that regional.. And we were broken during our last match on Friday evening.. They grabbed hold of our cage and pulled down.. Broke the middle stage of our lift.. I know that it's our fault for not having a very stable lift.. But I never liked our design of our lift from the beginning.. And I'm still friends with people on the team.. No hard feelings anymore.. It's just that it was the middle stage of the lift and we didn't have anymore fiberglass to remake the part.. I cried.. A wicked lot too.. Sure I was ripped at first when it was broken, but that's not why I was crying.. It was frustration.. The fact that I'd put in 6 weeks to build that robot and it was broken deliberately.. It took over 2 hours to fix the thing.. I feel bad for my engineers who had to miss half the party fixing it.. I even cried after it was fixed.. That's how frustrated I was.. And then someone on my team had to come over and try to make me feel better.. 'It's only a game Kate.' Uhm, excuse me, no.. It's not a game.. It's my life.. Now that I look back on the breakage, it's not so bad.. Things break in real life.. Nothings perfect.. I really don't even want it to be that way ever.. $@#$@#$@#$@# happens, you hafta learn to deal.. Gotta learn to recover.. No one's expected to be recovered from something like this in 2 minutes.. Now that I think about it.. The break was more heartbreaking for me than losing and not getting picked to go on at nationals.. Granted I don't like losing either, but having something that you've put your heart and soul into for 6 weeks is even worse.. Sorry that I've rambled for so long.. But y'know.. It's all good.. :-)

-KATe-


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KATe, kindred spirit?

Posted by Joe Johnson, Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 5/7/99 6:17 PM MST


In Reply to: I can relate posted by Kate Leach on 5/7/99 1:06 PM MST:



The obvious deep feelings and emotion in your posting rekindled in me some of the sorrow and loss I myself have felt at many times during these 4 years doing this FIRST thing.

And yet there are also times of great joy and feelings of accomplishment.

'I cried.. A wicked lot too..'

'It's my life.. '

'It's all good..'

Have I found a kindred spirit?

Those who know me and have also read your message will have no doubt.

Joe J.


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Re: KATe, kindred spirit?

Posted by Mike King, Other on team #88, TJ², from Bridgewater Raynham and Johnson & Johnson Professional.

Posted on 5/7/99 6:57 PM MST


In Reply to: KATe, kindred spirit? posted by Joe Johnson on 5/7/99 6:17 PM MST:



I'd imagine every team has a kindred spirit to Kate.

TJ² at rumble at the rock in 1997.
Wildstang at rumble at the rock in 1998.

Unfortunalty every team has had moments, near or like this.

Mike


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Re: Hey, I'm just following orders...

Posted by Andrew Trax, Coach on team #180, S.P.A.M., from Southfork,Martin Co. High and UTC.

Posted on 5/8/99 6:22 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: Hey, I'm just following orders... posted by Mike Kulibaba on 5/6/99 10:55 AM MST:



'I think you have all the right in the world to be dissapointed, I don't
think anyone wants to come home with anything less then the national
championship'

If you check the tense of the verbs regarding any disappointment felt in
my post preceding yours, they are all in the past. Like I said, it wasn't
that we lost the chance to win it all. It was having the game end for us.
We were done, finished and we didn't expect it.
Now maybe if we had approached it more aggressively - with more 'attitude' -
the outcome would have been different. Not neccessarily better or worse, just
different. Opinions on this subject are welcome. Do you go to play or to win?
How much competiveness is enough? Too much? How 'psyched' should the team be?
At what point do you stop being spirited and start being obnoxious?

Mrs. Trax



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Re: When do people become too competitive

Posted by Mike Kulibaba, Student on team #88, TJ², from Bridgewater-Raynham Regional and Johnson and Johnson.

Posted on 5/8/99 11:10 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: Hey, I'm just following orders... posted by Andrew Trax on 5/8/99 6:22 AM MST:



Do I go out to win? Yes, I think everyone should want to win. But that is not the main reason why I do this program, just being there is thrill. When you talk about competitiveness, I do not thing any sport(especially FIRST) can go without a competitive fire burning in people's body. Some people start to get too competitive when you want to win so bad that you cheat or play dirty. As I member of my team, if we just went out there to win and not to have fun then the competition wouldn't be as much fun and I probably wouldn't do it. For example: I used to play baseball and it was my favorite thing to do, I always had fun but I always wanted to win, I sacrificed my body many times to try to help the team win and some times we did and sometime we didn't, but I had no regrets about putting in the time and effort I did. This is my mentality with FIRST, I give up my body for 6 straight weeks to come up with a competitive robot that everyone who is on the team is proud of. I get the biggest thrill when a memeber of another team comes over and says that they like our robot cause it makes those 6 weeks worth every second. How psyched should a team be? I think a team should be psyched if they win and a little upset if they lose, but they should know that winning is not the resaon they are there. If you take my team for example, my team doesn't have as much of a competitive nature as I do, most people on my team let go of things a little after the match is over, it just takes me a little longer, and I am bad person cause I can't like go as easy. I think you stop becoming spirited when you get involved in these competitions just to win. And I don't think anyone does that, Even I know that this program is not about winning. Winning is not on the top of my list for why I do this program, I do this program for the students, for the fun or it, etc. Winning just comes at the end when everything else is taken care of, it's just nothing makes me happier then when that final bell rings if my team's robot is on top. I hope people don't think I'm obnoxious for thinking this way but competition is a part of life and everyone should always strive to be the best they can, in life or in FIRST, but do it within the rules. I would never break the rules to win in a FIRST competition or any other competition cause I have too much respect for the people that put in the hard work and effort in this program. In closing, Do I go out to win? yes. Am I competitive? of course I am. But I understand that the point of this program isn't to win, Winning is just a by-product. I think this is a very important question because I think so people do get really competitive when it comes to these things. Thank you for listening

Kuli Team 88 TJ²


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I'm with you...

Posted by Joe Johnson, Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 5/8/99 12:35 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: When do people become too competitive posted by Mike Kulibaba on 5/8/99 11:10 AM MST:



Well said. I feel exactly the same (with the exception that my sport of choice was football -- defensive end).

Joe J.


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where is the line drawn?

Posted by Daniel, Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Henry M Gunn Senior High School and NASA Ames.

Posted on 5/8/99 12:36 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: Hey, I'm just following orders... posted by Andrew Trax on 5/8/99 6:22 AM MST:



Where is the line drawn? I draw it at the edge of gracious professionalism. When a team is no longer concerned with people outside their team, and begins to neglect the feelings of those around them while striving for the gold, that team has gone too far.

I haven't seen much of this at all.

In fact, I'm not sure I have ever seen it.

A team has a right to be ecstatic when it wins, and respectively has a right to be devastated after a loss. That's what helps us beat on. That's what keeps the clock ticking. We take a fall, but then tell ourselves that 'next year, we're gonna clear our name'. In fact, a loss can be just as inspiring as a win. As long as we care.

All teams should be competitive. That's part of what's so inspiring about all this.


-Daniel
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Re: where is the line drawn?

Posted by Chris, Coach on team #308, Walled Lake Monster, from Walled Lake Schools and TRW Automotive Electronics.

Posted on 5/10/99 10:59 AM MST


In Reply to: where is the line drawn? posted by Daniel on 5/8/99 12:36 PM MST:



: Where is the line drawn? I draw it at the edge of gracious professionalism. When a team is no longer concerned with people outside their team, and begins to neglect the feelings of those around them while striving for the gold, that team has gone too far.

: I haven't seen much of this at all.

: In fact, I'm not sure I have ever seen it.

I've seen some of it. We won a match and afterward some of our students were threatened by students from another team. I'm not going to mention anything else about it, but I just wanted to say that I have seen it happen and I think that definitely goes over the line.

-Chris


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we'll survive

Posted by Daniel, Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Henry M Gunn Senior High School and NASA Ames.

Posted on 5/10/99 8:09 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: where is the line drawn? posted by Chris on 5/10/99 10:59 AM MST:



I didn't know anybody out there was that...intense (to put it kindly).

But even so, I think it's rare enough that we shouldn't worry our little heads off. We're always gonna have one or two ear-biters among the crew.


We'll live to tell about it... =)
-Daniel

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The meaning of my souredness, (if thats a word)

Posted by Andy Grady, Coach on team #42, P.A.R.T.S, from Alvirne High School and Daniel Webster College.

Posted on 5/6/99 5:22 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: Hey, I'm just following orders... posted by Elaine Anselm on 5/5/99 8:54 PM MST:



Now don't get me wrong, I am very proud and exited that we were able to get 18th out of 204 teams. By no means am i soured by that. However, I have been on a team with a winning tradition for many years, and this year i came to a team who had a rough time in the past competing on the level of some of the teams out there. On friday at lunch we were standing at number one. The students on my team were exposed to something new to them, contending for the championship. I can't even explain how it felt to see their faces after they had been through so many tough times in previous years concerning their robots. Not many on our team ever dreamed of being in the top 16, we saw top 16 as our major goal, and were out to get it at all costs. As you can imagine, we were dissapointed when a little bit of bad luck kept us from making the goal that was so close to our reach. Now, I know there are many teams out there who would be happy just to have a robot moving on the field, but they have their own goals, while we have ours. That is the reason why im soured. I however love this program, and it has done more for me than I could have ever imagined, so i would never be soured by it. I just like to argue about the game from year to year, thats part of why the program is such fun.
Cya all later,
Andy Grady, DWC/Alvirne


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Please READ

Posted by Shannon, Coach on team #191, XCATS, from Wilson Magnet High School and Xerox.

Posted on 5/8/99 12:27 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: Hey, I'm just following orders... posted by Elaine Anselm on 5/5/99 8:54 PM MST:



:I'm hoping this doesn't get lost in this long thread, but anyway....I'm a student on the same team as Elaine and I can tell you I'm one of the people she's had to make feel better after we've lost a match or competition and I just wanted to give my two cents. I'm a senior this year and am one of the first students coaches. This whole year was stressful (when isn't it), but even more especially for me this year because I was a coach and had to chose the drivers/players and make sure they were ready. after the regional where just about everything bad that could happen, did, I don't really think we knew how well we would do at nationals. So, our goal was to go out and show what we were capable of. That's all anyone really can do. When we got the perfect score ( yay TJ^), I can honestly tell you it was one of the best moments of my life. All the years of coming SO close, or doing really not well made getting into the top 16 that much sweeter for me. When we were eliminated in the first round, I walked down the tunnel and as 200 people cheered and clapped, I walked over to my best friend and cried for the longest time. Everyone stood there cheering, which only made me cry harder. After everyone went back to the pit, we finally started walking back and everyone kept telling me they were so proud of all of us. I'm sure other people who saw me crying thought I was upset because we had lost. But that wasn't the reason. I was upset because I'm a senior and that would be the last time walking down the tunnel as an XCat. It was bittersweet. I was SO proud of my team, my drivers, the robot, our alliance partners, and I was sad that it was ending. FIRST has been the light for me in high school - the adults on my team are my heroes. I'll be back next year, but on a different team. Why am I rambling this much? Because if I let how we do at the competition dictate to me how I felt about the year, I would have been devastated every year and never would have come back after my freshman year. I wouldn't have been able to handle it. I came back and put myself through all of the stress because the adults have taught us that the most important thing is us (the students). How we do at the competition is secondary. I'm not going to lie. I wanted to win nationals, very badly in fact. Who goes in there not hoping it's their team rushing the stage at the end of finals? But I also knew that if it didn't happen that it was ok too. Because this program is about how much you can challenge yourself and learn. I've learned a lot about myself the past 4 years in FIRST - that I cna be a leader (ask Elaine - my freshman year no one would have thought I would be up on the stage coaching), that winning doesn't neccessarily mean you get a trophy. We have lots of them at our site and I can tell you that what I remember from FIRST is not the awards ceremonies, the matches or any of that. I remember our team parties. I remember all of the people I've met through FIRST. I remember the adults on the team helping me figure out where I wanted to go to college. I remember 200 people cheering at the end of the tunnel even though they were probably disappointed too. Those are the things that are important in life. In 20 years, you aren't going to look back and say, gee I'm still angry we didn't make it into the top 16. Hopefully you don't. You should look back and remember that you did something important. And you should feel proud. Whether you came in first or 207th. SHANN


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go shannon!

Posted by Daniel, Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Henry M Gunn Senior High School and NASA Ames.

Posted on 5/8/99 12:45 PM MST


In Reply to: Please READ posted by Shannon on 5/8/99 12:27 PM MST:



I couldn't agree more.

Very well put...although it would have been nice to separate into a few paragraphs ;-)

Thanks for being wonderful alliance partners!
-Daniel


= = = = = = = = = =
PS -
Want to feel better? Do what I'm doing, start a team. I'll never walk down that tunnel as a GRT member, but I sure plan on walking the tunnel again.
= = = = = = = = = =
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