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Unread 23-06-2002, 22:22
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Re: Fully Agree (But I meant something else)

Posted by Chris.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Coach on team #308, Walled Lake Monster, from Walled Lake Schools and TRW Automotive Electronics.

Posted on 3/16/2000 6:31 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: Two Different Games posted by Greg Mills on 3/15/2000 1:50 PM MST:



: :
: The reality is that reputation is very important. That reputation was earned for a reason. The robot is only a part of the alliance partner selection. Does that team have what it takes to make it through a tough bracket? A ready pit crew with available spares, a series of charged batteries, a robust enough design to handle many back to back rounds, an unflappable driving and coaching team, etc? Are they willing to do what the alliance captain wants? Did they have a scouting infrastructure to help with the next pick or to help with strategy?

: If I am lucky enough to be in the position of picking - I know some teams that will get high consideration just because I know what they are capable of.

I agree with everything above. However, when I say reputation, I was referring to reputation gained from previous years. Another thing is that I really did exagerate a bit (when I implied reputation is everything).

Anyway, to keep people from getting mad at me, this is what I meant:

Teams that did well in the past and have good reputations get more looks from the other teams. When a lot of teams get to the competitions (I know I'm guilty of this), they get the practice sheet and highlight teams like Chief Delphi, Baxter Bomb Squad, Beatty, etc. to be sure to see what they've come up with this year. I know that these teams also typically experience higher traffic at their pits to see what they're doing this time around.

Hardly anyone picks a team simply because they won the championship last year. BUT, if Team A and Team B are practically identical, and the alliance captain is very familiar with A and not B, they will pick A (and be justified). My point is that when a team has a reputation, the picking teams are typically much more familiar with these teams and are much more likely to pick them based on familiarity (familiarity gained from watching them practice, visiting them in the pits, etc.).

This is, of course, a generalization and not every team operates this way (so save your 'I disagree''s because I'm sure you exist). But I know this from experience. You would not believe how many teams we had to beg to see us play or to come to our pits to see us up close. We were told many times by teams that they didn't know what our team was like. We asked them to come watch us play and they usually didn't. One team we actually pestered long enough that they came to see us just to get us off of their back (they were happy they watched us afterward). (How many people did the HOT Team have to pester to see them play or practice - I'll bet none.)

The point is this: No one picks a team just because of reputation from previous years. But these teams do get more looks from other teams and get more of a benefit of the doubt from other teams. I'm not saying that it's wrong or unjustified. I'm just saying that it exists. Rookie teams and teams with no reputations have to work about 25% harder to get picked than these other teams. It's just human nature.

(For everyone who wasn't at the GLR, our team did get picked and we made it to the semi-finals. I'm not here to complain. I'm just trying to point out a potential flaw with the alliance system. A flaw that might potentially explain why the Baker team didn't get picked. Along these same lines, we were undefeated at Nationals last year and didn't get picked. We used that experience to make us stronger by putting together a pretty strong marketing effort this year. If you guys see us in your pits every five minutes this year, you now know why. With this in mind, I'll see everyone at the next competition. )


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number of teams is the problem...

Posted by Joe Johnson.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 3/16/2000 10:29 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: Fully Agree (But I meant something else) posted by Chris on 3/16/2000 6:31 AM MST:



Chris,

I agree with you.

I think that the big equalizer for both improved rank estimation and for getting teams to know which teams have great robots would be to limit the number of teams per competition to under 40.

With almost 70 teams at the Great Lakes Regional, it took a lot to get noticed.

If you have under 40 team per competition, then each team can have 12 qualifying matches. This means that each team partners with 12 teams and plays against 24 teams. That means that a team sees 36 teams during their qualifying matches (assuming no duplicates for simplicity). So, it is much more likely that each team has been on the field with any particular good team (either as a partner or as an opponent). Because of this, teams will have to market themselves less aggressively. More qualifying matches have the additional benefit of improving the ranking because good luck and bad luck have the opportunity to average out.

With 7 qualifying matches for each team and with about 300 teams at the Nationals, it will be very easy of good teams to fall through the cracks. Each team will only play or play against 21 out of 300 teams, about 7% of all teams. Not enough to really know the potential that exists out there.

Is it time to have an invitation only Nationals (similar to the NCAA)? Maybe so.

Joe J.


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Re: number of teams is the problem...

Posted by Brett R..

Other on team #201, Viste-Feds, from Rochester High School and Visteon Automotive Systems.

Posted on 3/16/2000 2:21 PM MST


In Reply to: number of teams is the problem... posted by Joe Johnson on 3/16/2000 10:29 AM MST:



At GLR we had our scouts in the stands, we did very little in pit scouting of anyone that we weren't going to play against. Actually being in the match with someone to see their abilities isn't necessary. There is nothing wrong with the number of teams at competitions, (except maybe running out of room) it all comes back down to luck, to see if you get scouted or if you play on the right field, at the right time, with the right people watching.


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Re: number of teams is the problem...

Posted by Pat Major.

Other on team #468, Explorer, from BSA/Baker.

Posted on 3/16/2000 10:21 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: number of teams is the problem... posted by Brett R. on 3/16/2000 2:21 PM MST:



: At GLR we had our scouts in the stands, we did very little in pit scouting of anyone that we weren't going to play against. Actually being in the match with someone to see their abilities isn't necessary. There is nothing wrong with the number of teams at competitions, (except maybe running out of room) it all comes back down to luck, to see if you get scouted or if you play on the right field, at the right time, with the right people watching.
Brett,
I would have to agree with Joe, isn't this a competition, don't we want take as much luck out as possible and put as much skill in as we can?
Pat



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Re: number of teams is the problem...

Posted by Brett R..

Student on team #201, Viste-Feds, from Rochester High School and Visteon Automotive Systems.

Posted on 3/25/2000 10:25 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: number of teams is the problem... posted by Pat Major on 3/16/2000 10:21 PM MST:



Then work at it, and send your people in to the pits of teams to get noticed. Yes, it is a competition, and so you should also compete to get noticed.
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Re: Two Different Games

Posted by S. Krussell.

Coach on team #349, Robahamas, from International Academy and Ford Motor Co..

Posted on 3/15/2000 6:31 PM MST


In Reply to: Two Different Games posted by Chris on 3/15/2000 6:47 AM MST:



Well Chris, I don't think i agree with you on that. If the elimination teams were picked based on the seeding rounds, then a lot of good teams will also be left behind. It's not about the points. When the partner can't move on the field, one team must work alone. Less chance of winning the round there. So luck (or lack thereof) will affect your final standings. There were teams who personally scored almost NO points on their own, yet were ranked high because they had very capable partners. That's not right, but then, they don't have a chance at getting picked. So as i mentioned somewhere else here, I still think that 'ranking' is overrated and under-useful.

I like the system this year. If you're good, you'll get picked. If you're good and didn't get picked this year....cheer up, there's always next tournament. We've ALL been through that.


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Re: Two Different Games

Posted by Chris.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Coach on team #308, Walled Lake Monster, from Walled Lake Schools and TRW Automotive Electronics.

Posted on 3/16/2000 5:46 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: Two Different Games posted by S. Krussell on 3/15/2000 6:31 PM MST:



: Well Chris, I don't think i agree with you on that. If the elimination teams were picked based on the seeding rounds, then a lot of good teams will also be left behind. It's not about the points.

I agree with everything you say. What I meant was that the seeding rounds should (perhaps) be scored differently such that it predicts success in the eliminations. I still like the idea of picking partners. Joe hit the nail on the head below with the baseball analogy. Keeping with his analogy, my point was that I would rather see us use the win/loss record in baseball rather than total successful bunts. (In other words, there is little correlation between bunting and winning the World Series, so why use it to determine who makes the playoffs?) Last year's system wasn't perfect, but I believe it had more correlation to success in the eliminations than this year's system.

As a side note, I don't want anything to change this year (I hate rule changes once competitions begin).


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Re: it's okay

Posted by mike aubry.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #47, Chiefs, from Pontiac Central.

Posted on 3/14/2000 8:51 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: No Changes at this point, PLEASE! posted by Pat Major on 3/14/2000 2:37 PM MST:



Pat,
I think you guys did great. Regradless of the 80 points (by the way I have no clue how many we scored cuz I wasn't watching for that) This FIRST thing that you guys experienced will leave a lasting impression. The game, the scoring, the ups, downs, and twists have always been debated here at this website for the past 5 years. We welcome everyone's opinion and believe that everyone is entitled to share it here. We have a ball discussing everything from serious matters to silly stuff - but that's what this site is about. I didn't think that you were advocating 'CHANGE', but instead just wanted feedback on how your robot performed. So, if you guys did score 80 points by yourselves - then you did awesome!!! Congrats, and keep up the great work. P.S. - when I'm not at work at Delphi, or doing this FIRST thing, I teach evening classes at Baker Mt. Clemens campus! GO B.C.!!!


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Re: it's okay

Posted by Pat Major.

Other on team #468, Explorer, from BSA/Baker.

Posted on 3/14/2000 10:08 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: it's okay posted by mike aubry on 3/14/2000 8:51 PM MST:





Thanks for the feed back Mike we are new and tring to learn.
Pat



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Re: High Score Low Rank????

Posted by S. Krussell.

Coach on team #349, Robahamas, from International Academy and Ford Motor Co..

Posted on 3/14/2000 2:51 PM MST


In Reply to: High Score Low Rank???? posted by Pat Major on 3/13/2000 10:20 PM MST:



I'm not convinced that ranking is accurate, but I don't think it matters because it all seems to shake out in the end. Some teams were ranked quite high, even with a machine that just sat on the field and didn't work most of the time, because they had partners that carried the load. The real test, I guess, is who gets picked for the finals by the top 8 teams, and I do think the best teams made it to the top 8. Beyond that, scouting reports and observations of matches reveal the better machines and their strengths.

Counting 'points' scored during the seeding matches is irrelevant.....that's not the measure of a machine, especially in those cases where the alliance partner scored all the points for the match. But I guess everyone knows that already.



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Re: High Score Low Rank????

Posted by Pat Major.

Other on team #468, Explorer, from BSA/Baker.

Posted on 3/14/2000 10:03 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: High Score Low Rank???? posted by S. Krussell on 3/14/2000 2:51 PM MST:




The reason we were counting points is we were the alliance partner that scored the points, 80 points by our robot and 21 by our partners. You make a good point about getting picked, even though we scored a lot of points, we are not fast and have to go over the ramp to cross the field and our robot was made by the students and was not the prettiest. So who would ever pick us just because we scored a lot of points, and our robot always did what it was suppose to do, and never broke or malfunctioned. I never saw any one keeping track of a robots score, they just track by what you received for your match on their scouting report, did you? I do love it and we will be back, but I'm still working on how we should design next years (small team only money for one competition this year), lets see points are not the most important thing, it must be speed, traction, and ???. Give me some help. Well I think I'm beating a dead robot to death. I look forward to hearing more for you. By the way there was only one robot at GLR that came close to yours, and they won the competition.... HOW ? by SCORING THE MOST POINTS ( I did really like you robot)
Hope I Don't Sound To Harsh, it's getting late for me and I tend to get lose liped
Thanks
Hope to hear more
Pat


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Keep on keeping on...

Posted by Joe Johnson.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 3/15/2000 7:21 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: High Score Low Rank???? posted by Pat Major on 3/14/2000 10:03 PM MST:



The thing to do is to keep doing your great job.

As to who would notice, well, LOTS of TEAMS!

Everyone knows that there is not a great correlation between a team's rank and a teams desirability as a partner in the finals (and the correlation gets worse the deeper into the rankings one goes -- in fact I would go even further and say that with the current QP system a team at the very bottom is actually more likely to be desirable partner than a team about 1/3 of the way up from the bottom -- but that is the topic for a different message).

Given that everyone knows that straight ranking is not a good method to pick partners, most teams have scouting teams. These teams are not looking at ranking but other things. In our case we have a list of features and capabilities that is totally separate from qualifying points or even winning.

So...

Buck up. Capable robots get noticed. In your case at the GLR, you were overlooked. Sorry. Chalk it up to bad luck. Your luck will change if you keep doing the right things.

Good luck.

Joe J.



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Re: High Score Low Rank????

Posted by Patrick Seeney.

Student on team #469, Las Guerrillas, from Oakland Robotics and Lawrence Technological University and Magna Seating Systems, Nachi and Kuka Robotics.

Posted on 3/14/2000 10:14 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: High Score Low Rank???? posted by S. Krussell on 3/14/2000 2:51 PM MST:



: I'm not convinced that ranking is accurate, but I don't think it matters because it all seems to shake out in the end. Some teams were ranked quite high, even with a machine that just sat on the field and didn't work most of the time, because they had partners that carried the load. The real test, I guess, is who gets picked for the finals by the top 8 teams, and I do think the best teams made it to the top 8. Beyond that, scouting reports and observations of matches reveal the better machines and their strengths.

: Counting 'points' scored during the seeding matches is irrelevant.....that's not the measure of a machine, especially in those cases where the alliance partner scored all the points for the match. But I guess everyone knows that already.

See, that even comes to be not entirely accurate. There may be some bots that are designed for purely defense, or purely offense, whose talents may shine in the finals, and depend on being picked in the finals. I know that our bot took on a more defensive role towards the end of the competition, with the option of dumping in two balls minimum. As we were not picked, but we ended up 15th, and on average we could score about 11 points. So i believe it comes down to luck in a way.

Pat




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Re: High Score Low Rank????

Posted by Pat Major.

Other on team #468, Explorer, from BSA/Baker.

Posted on 3/14/2000 10:47 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: High Score Low Rank???? posted by Patrick Seeney on 3/14/2000 10:14 PM MST:




Pat
Thanks you are the only one that has replied with your robots score. Knowing that we were up there with you guys makes us feel better, than thinking we scored all those points and deserved to be at the bottom. The luck of the draw----- is the luck of the draw, and everyone has an equal chance at that. I really don't know where 11.42 points would have put us with regular scoring, but it's nice to think about, what is life without dreams, I guess I'll dream about next year.
Pat


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Re: High Score Low Rank????

Posted by Thomas Grupp.

Engineer on team #378, Circuit Stompers, from Newfane High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 3/15/2000 5:47 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: High Score Low Rank???? posted by Pat Major on 3/14/2000 10:47 PM MST:



:
Pat

If your interested this is how we did. Over the seven seeding matches we scored 74 pts. our alliance partners scored 41 pts. for atotal of 115 pts. for the alliance. Using the scoring method that first uses we
ranked 22nd with an Avg/Qp of 22 pts. a match.

However, I believe that using the score of the opponent after the match is over is a great indication of the spirit of the co-opetition! It does come down to the luck of the draw! But, that is part of the competition, and the part that makes this type of event what it is: AWESOME!!!!

Best Regards
Tom Grupp
Team #378
The Circuit Stompers!



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