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Unread 12-10-2001, 22:47
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Shelf and board dimensions still don't add up

Thanks for the pictures, Mike!

But something STILL doesn't add up in the page 23 diagram.

The pictures (and diagram) show what appear to be the back edge of the shelf inserted into a slot into the vertical board, and the 16" and 6" dimensions overlapping.

The diagram states it is 24" front edge to back edge, 16" inches from the front edge for the shelf depth, and yet the the vertical board is only 6" deep. Unless I've gone totally braindead from staring at this problem too long (a strong possibility, given lack of sleep ALREADY... ;-) 16" + 6" = 22" which is less than 24".

That would mean the back edge of the shelf dangles free two inches before encountering the front edge of the vertical board.

So, which dimension is wrong? It's important to know, because this affects the position of the back board, which impacts design reach length in any shelf management tool.

Also, are the back board slope angle and the front edge cut angle both 45 degrees WRT horizontal?

Thanks!
- Keith McClary, Huron High Team 830
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Unread 12-10-2001, 22:52
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6 is 10

sorry, the 6 inch dimension is suppose to be 10" - I thought I had that revision posted. There is a 2 " over lap - that is created by a 1/4" dia. router. That gives the shelf a 2" ledge to sit on. Hope that helps - P.S. get some sleep - its only a game!
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Unread 13-10-2001, 00:50
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How about the angles?

Thanks! OK, NOW it's starting to make sense! <grin>

So what's the scoop on the "angles" question?

> P.S. get some sleep - its only a game!

<chuckle> Yea, but it's our *first* "FIRST" game!

As a rookie team never having done or seen ANY of this hardware before, having some kit problems, and without even a goal in hand to STARE at for design considerations, the team is playing some *serious* "catch-up ball" with the rest of you old-timers here. We're still flailing around trying to figure out what's what, how it all works, and what to put where... <grin> (Yea Mike, I know... You'll tell us where to put it if I give you half a chance... ;-)

Besides, this is the most fun some of us have had in a while! <grin> (Especially considering some depressing recent events.)

Boy, I'm going to bed now. I've definitely been up WAY too long... <grin> (Hmmm... Past way midnight *again*...)

Now that we know what's up with the shelving, I've got to get up early to go and help shop for wood and shelving before our 9 AM construction session. <sigh>

Thanks, Mike!

- Keith McClary, Huron High Team 830
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2002: 830 "Rat Pack" | 2003-5;14: 1015;1076 "Pi Hi Samurai" | 2005-6: 1549 "Washtenuts"/"Fire Traxx"
2005-(on): 1502 "Technical Difficulties" | 2006-(on): FIRST Volunteer!
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2011: 3638 "Tigertrons" | 2013-(on): 4395 "ViBots" | 2014-(on) 66 "Grizzlies"
"Home" Teams: 66, 470, 1076, 1502, 4395
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Unread 13-10-2001, 08:40
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Shelf Diagram Uploaded

Sorry we neglected to upload a new shelf diagram.

This is a case of everyone thinking the other person had already done it.

Sorry for the delays.

Joe J.
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File Type: doc cdi_2001_shelf_diagram.doc (41.0 KB, 204 views)
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Unread 13-10-2001, 09:14
meaubry meaubry is offline
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I love rookie enthusiasm

KM,
I hope everything works out for your rookie team. I'm glad you have chosen the CDI as your baptism into FIRST. I love your enthusiasm and just wanted to let you know that we appreciate it. Often, that begins to wan with teams that have been around and its good to remind ourselves of Just what it felt like way back when we all started down this trail. FIRST and CDI strives to make the experience a fun, exciting, thoughtful one! Good Luck - keep asking questions, and technical help is also available from many teams that can't participate in the CDI by posting those type questions on that page. You will be amazed at How much help you can get.
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Unread 13-10-2001, 23:44
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Thanks

Thanks!

BTW, with that last size correction, it cleared the way for our building session today. FYI: We're all set on dimensions. The numbers all add up now.

We obtained the wood to build all of the subsets of the field we decided to duplicate for practice purposes, cut it, and even completed a preassembly check today. Other students were working on various subsystems. We rotated tasks so everyone had a shot at things.

> I hope everything works out for your rookie team.
> I'm glad you have chosen the CDI as your baptism into FIRST.

Thanks, and thank YOU for creating this contest, AND the Forum, and making it available to US. It is EXTREMELY helpful, and makes FIRST technology MUCH more reachable by beginners.

I've been a follower of FIRST for several years. After three years of "no Ann Arbor in the GLR", I finally gave up on waiting for FIRST to "show up" in town, and took the bull by the horns. (Wow... It turned out I grabbed something more akin to an OCTOPUS! :-)

The biggest problem I found with starting a new team was that old "chicken/egg" thing of getting student AND sponsor interest up in something of the financial level that FIRST runs at.

IMHO, it is EXTREMELY difficult to convince sponsors to support something the students just aren't quite sure about yet. The students have to WANT IT.

But, it is VERY difficult to get the STUDENTS up for it without them actually MAKING something. Students can't easily make a FIRST machine without some big bucks from SOMEONE. (At least $5-10K...)
A closed circle.

So... How to start???

For me, the CDI was a godsend. It is playing a KEY role in SOLVING that classic Catch-22 / bootstrapping problem. It provides that missing place for a new team to get their feet wet with FIRST technology WITHOUT big corporate support, and helps with building the all important "enthusiasm and motivation" area to excite the students about the sport. I feel this excitement, coupled with the FIRST-hand knowledge they'll get (pun intended... :-) will give them better reason TO go out and help FIND the sponsors. It enables THEM to talk more coherently about FIRST. This makes them ALL "Product Champions", a critical first step in convincing a sponsor to support you.

After researching many teams' startup (and often horror) stories, finding the CDI was by far the BEST thing I've come across to help your typical underfinanced rookie team. FIRST technology can be daunting to a beginner. We NEED more "Farm Club Contests"! It gives that needed experience with the hardware to make the transition to a full FIRST contest much more attainable.

Also: I've found finding sponsors to donate $100 or so at a pop is a LOT easier then finding them to donate $1,000 or 10,000!!! <grin> We've found SEVERAL "Mom and Pop" businesses that can help us at this much lower financial level. A mini playfield carpet was donated by a carpet company. A small "open account tab donation" from a local hardware store gave us our shelf grill, glue, and some fasteners. We've gotten other small ($50 or $100) cash donations from others, etc. This gives our fundraisers the needed practice of talking with smaller companies, to prepare them for later talking to the BIG guys. <grin>

At the school, we're using the CDI as a Team Building exercise, and "ground school" training. Today, I went through a design session on "calculating gear ratios" and "speed vs torque tradeoffs". THEY are now going to determine what we'll use.

We also made field elements today. In the school's shop this afternoon, advisors demonstrated hand power tools like a circular saw, Dremel, band saw, and the like. Many students had never had a chance to try them before, and were pretty excited. We then let THEM make and shape the components, with THEIR hands on the controls. (Before long, they were coming to US to ask how to do things like tricky cuts on a band saw... :-)

Once they could actually SEE a shelf segment, some railing taking shape, and our first parts for the robot in their hands, it all started to click that This... Is... Real! (Gee, what a revelation! :-)

It also made quite a difference in their attitude. I think that before then, watching FIRST videos with a several foot high railing and THEN looking at the diagrams & online photos gave everyone a "back brain feeling" of a similarly HUGE scale. I think dwelling that thought was quite intimidating to many..

I'm SO glad we got our field construction underway *first*. Seeing a shelf in front of them helped to put the true SCALE of the field, and this year's competition, into perspective. "Boy, that's LOW [SMALL]!", "I was SURE it was MUCH bigger [waist high, etc..]!" and the like were common comments. <grin>

The team is now making that all important transformation from "unsure passive information absorption" to "full involvement with design decisions and manufacturing responsibility". Today was definitely a Watershed Day. Now that they have some design goals down, have started to see hardware actually shaping up, AND knowing THEY made it, they now KNOW in their bones that this IS doable by them, and are getting much more excited, interested in it, and are becoming more confident that they can pull it off.

> I love your enthusiasm and just wanted
> to let you know that we appreciate it.
> Often, that begins to wan with teams
> that have been around and its good to
> remind ourselves of Just what it felt
> like way back when we all started down
> this trail. FIRST and CDI strives to
> make the experience a fun, exciting,
> thoughtful one!

Thanks! (BTW "meaubry"... What is your full name?)

I do hope the CDI in the future continues to maintain a contest design attitude of "keep it small, simple, low budget, and made with local hardware store parts". This does keep the contest reachable by other novice teams who, like us, do not yet have major corporate sponsors (or no local megacorp), and can continue to help foster the creation of more FIRST teams so we all can have even MORE fun!

Thanks again for starting up this great competition!

- Keith McClary, Huron High Team 830
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ACTI - Automation Computer Technologies, Inc. (Sponsoring FIRST teams since 2001!)
MI Robot Club (Trainer) / GO-Tech Maker's Club / RepRap-Michigan) / SEMI CNC Club
"Certifiably Insane": Started FIVE FRC teams & many robot clubs (so far)!
2002: 830 "Rat Pack" | 2003-5;14: 1015;1076 "Pi Hi Samurai" | 2005-6: 1549 "Washtenuts"/"Fire Traxx"
2005-(on): 1502 "Technical Difficulties" | 2006-(on): FIRST Volunteer!
2009-(on): 470 "Alpha Omega" | WAFL | Sponsor & "Floating Engineer" for MI Dist 13 (Washtenaw Cnty)
2011: 3638 "Tigertrons" | 2013-(on): 4395 "ViBots" | 2014-(on) 66 "Grizzlies"
"Home" Teams: 66, 470, 1076, 1502, 4395
Local FIRST alumni at or coming to Ann Arbor (UM/EMU/WCC/Cleary)?
...We Want YOU as a Mentor! Please email me for info!
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Unread 14-10-2001, 14:45
meaubry meaubry is offline
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What a great post - you hit it on the head, why we do it the way we do it (it being the CDI) See you and your team in a few weeks - good luck
ps: my full name is Michael E. Aubry thus MEAUBRY,
but I go by Mike
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Unread 14-10-2001, 15:22
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One last missing measurement

Thanks, Mike! Glad to meet you.

Your diagram answered my next question (Ans: 47 vs 48 inches for the backrail... :-)

One last measurement question, about positioning and mounting the field back rails.

There are no dimensions for exactly WHERE the rails go. Should I assume it is centered on a line between the upper left corner and the end of the slot, and equidistant from both? If not, what are the proper angle and distance X-Y offsets for the board?

OOC, how are you mounting the backboard to the upright securely so you don't have hardware involved on the "game side" surface? Glue alone is very questionable mechanically. (Especially with wild robots present!!! :-) Ends are no problem (screws from the far side), but because the boards are all inline, the midpieces are more difficult without external hardware, nails, or screws sticking out to catch things.

Are you using dowels run into or through holes in the upright? Screws/Nails/L-brackets from the underside? Pocket screw & fill? Or did you simply nail them in stud-style, bash the heads in so they wouldn't stick out, and paint over them? <grin>

Thanks!

- Keith McClary, Huron High Team 830
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MI Robot Club (Trainer) / GO-Tech Maker's Club / RepRap-Michigan) / SEMI CNC Club
"Certifiably Insane": Started FIVE FRC teams & many robot clubs (so far)!
2002: 830 "Rat Pack" | 2003-5;14: 1015;1076 "Pi Hi Samurai" | 2005-6: 1549 "Washtenuts"/"Fire Traxx"
2005-(on): 1502 "Technical Difficulties" | 2006-(on): FIRST Volunteer!
2009-(on): 470 "Alpha Omega" | WAFL | Sponsor & "Floating Engineer" for MI Dist 13 (Washtenaw Cnty)
2011: 3638 "Tigertrons" | 2013-(on): 4395 "ViBots" | 2014-(on) 66 "Grizzlies"
"Home" Teams: 66, 470, 1076, 1502, 4395
Local FIRST alumni at or coming to Ann Arbor (UM/EMU/WCC/Cleary)?
...We Want YOU as a Mentor! Please email me for info!
Support CDF Reputation - If a posting helped, thank 'em with rep points!
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Unread 14-10-2001, 22:30
meaubry meaubry is offline
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On the backside, away from the field we will be using L shaped angle aluminum brackets. This will allow us to fasten through the backboard reinforcement using one leg of the L, and then drill a hole and use a common fastener and nut through the other leg of the L on the angle brackets and divider board. This will allow us to keep the boards aligned and still construct it fairly easily. As far as the exact positioning of the backboard reinforcement, you are correct in guessing corner to end of shelving unit. The gap on the bottom that results will not be large enough to allow a juice bottle to fall through it - if yours is then slide the backboard reinforcement down that imaginary angle until the gap no longer allows a bottle to fall through.
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Unread 15-10-2001, 10:35
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Clarification - where along that line?

meaubry wrote:
> On the backside, away from the field we will be using L shaped angle aluminum brackets.

OK.

> You are correct in guessing corner to end of shelving unit. [If the bottle can fall through then slide it down further.]

Where, slid along that line? Do we center the gap (equidistant space between top corner and shelving gap), or run it all the way to the top?

Hmmm... On second thought, rather than have our mockup deviate from yours by just "setting a gap until it doesn't fall through", can you please just tell me what YOUR measurement is?

Imagine a line on the divider board from the top left corner (top back edge) of the divider to the end of the shelf notch. Measure along that line from the top corner until you hit the center of thin edge of the backboard, which should be lying on that line. What is THAT length?

Better yet (and easier to measure), what is the exact gap size??

Thanks!
- Keith McClary, Huron High Team 830
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"Certifiably Insane": Started FIVE FRC teams & many robot clubs (so far)!
2002: 830 "Rat Pack" | 2003-5;14: 1015;1076 "Pi Hi Samurai" | 2005-6: 1549 "Washtenuts"/"Fire Traxx"
2005-(on): 1502 "Technical Difficulties" | 2006-(on): FIRST Volunteer!
2009-(on): 470 "Alpha Omega" | WAFL | Sponsor & "Floating Engineer" for MI Dist 13 (Washtenaw Cnty)
2011: 3638 "Tigertrons" | 2013-(on): 4395 "ViBots" | 2014-(on) 66 "Grizzlies"
"Home" Teams: 66, 470, 1076, 1502, 4395
Local FIRST alumni at or coming to Ann Arbor (UM/EMU/WCC/Cleary)?
...We Want YOU as a Mentor! Please email me for info!
Support CDF Reputation - If a posting helped, thank 'em with rep points!
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Unread 15-10-2001, 22:30
meaubry meaubry is offline
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Sorry about the confusion, tomorrow I will have Mr. Martus actually measure what he built and took pictures of and then we will post the exact dimensions.
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Unread 18-10-2001, 12:09
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Dimensions yet?

On Mon, Oct 15, 2001 meaubry wrote:

> Sorry about the confusion [...] we will post the exact dimensions.

Did you ever find out what those exact backboard positioning dimensions are? Please post them as soon as possible. We really need to move on, and it is now holding up design decisions.

Thanks!

- Keith McClary, Huron High Team 830
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ACTI - Automation Computer Technologies, Inc. (Sponsoring FIRST teams since 2001!)
MI Robot Club (Trainer) / GO-Tech Maker's Club / RepRap-Michigan) / SEMI CNC Club
"Certifiably Insane": Started FIVE FRC teams & many robot clubs (so far)!
2002: 830 "Rat Pack" | 2003-5;14: 1015;1076 "Pi Hi Samurai" | 2005-6: 1549 "Washtenuts"/"Fire Traxx"
2005-(on): 1502 "Technical Difficulties" | 2006-(on): FIRST Volunteer!
2009-(on): 470 "Alpha Omega" | WAFL | Sponsor & "Floating Engineer" for MI Dist 13 (Washtenaw Cnty)
2011: 3638 "Tigertrons" | 2013-(on): 4395 "ViBots" | 2014-(on) 66 "Grizzlies"
"Home" Teams: 66, 470, 1076, 1502, 4395
Local FIRST alumni at or coming to Ann Arbor (UM/EMU/WCC/Cleary)?
...We Want YOU as a Mentor! Please email me for info!
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Unread 20-10-2001, 09:12
meaubry meaubry is offline
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Hey sorry about the delay in getting the actual measurement. It's gotten extremely busy both at work (Delphi) and at the school - and Mr.Martus didn't have chance to get to this. If it's truely holding you up, heres what to do.
On the Divider board, draw a line going between the upper rear corner of the divider board and the very end of the shelf unit. Slide the reinforcement board along the line until the gap at the bottom doesn't allow the juice bottle to fall down into the gap that still exists. Make sure you check both ways 1) bottle sliding with the bottom of it flat against the shelf unit and 2) side of juice bottle leaning against the reinforcment board. The measurement should be just around 4" since the bottles are 5" wide.

Last edited by meaubry : 20-10-2001 at 09:16.
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