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Unread 11-11-2001, 10:08
Ken Leung's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
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Question QUESTION OF THE WEEK!!! [11-11-01]

Hi all. An issue about shipping the robot after regional competitions was brought up when some west coast teams got together yesterday, and I am interested in hearing what do people in here think about it... The issue was about how a few years ago, FIRST's rule of shipping after a regional was that teams had to directly ship the robot right after the competition, while last year, FIRST allowed teams a few days to work on their robot before they have to ship it to another event... With that in mind, here is the question of the week...

QUESTION 11/11/01: Should FIRST allow teams to keep their robot and work on it in their headquarters a few days after an event, or should they require all teams to ship their robot right away?

Have fun,
-Ken Leung

P.S. I am open to suggestions of any questions you want as the "QUESTION OF THE WEEK!!!"... So e-mail me at ken_leung@hotmail.com and show me what you got...
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Unread 11-11-2001, 19:55
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Shipping

More teams than ever this year are going to multiple events. Allowing teams to take their robot to make repairs that cannot be made on event site is important to maintain quality machines. Also in many cases the next event may be local and they can drive it to drayage by the deadline saving many valuable $$$, a very important issue.

Nothine worse than shipping a robot that is damaged and needs repair and the students are not allowed to do it in their own shop.

The year we all shipped from event to event caused the machine shops to be flooded with repairs, many of the robots were not repaired as well as if they had been done by the students that created them. Adults, strangers to the team were making the repairs.

I will go out on a limb here, I know I will get all kinds of hate e-mails, but ........ I think all teams should keep their robot and bring or ship to the event as required. this allows the teams that cannot go to multiple events the time to practice and refine their machine. Think of the quality/competitive machines there would be. Afterall in Industry don't they keep improving a product once it is released? They don't just say live with your mistakes.

I know I will hear about this! Please be kind.
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Unread 11-11-2001, 21:04
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I definitely agree with you on that one. After West Michigan, our robot needed some serious repairs. It broke in the final qualifying match, and we needed to replace a broken shaft. Had we not been able to take our robot home, we would have either had to fix it during the elims, or fix it during practice Thursday at Great Lakes. Instead, we took it home, fixed it in our shop, and gained the peace of mind in knowing that our robot was fixed and ready to compete right out of the box (or crate, as it masy be). I don't think teams should HAVE to take their bot home, but it should remain an option for anyone who wants to.
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Unread 12-11-2001, 08:11
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Agree...

I also agree that teams should be able to take their robot home w/ them after the comp. Last year it seems that every time something on our robot would break once we got it home, but at least it broke while we were at our shop and not at the compittion where some of the things we had to fix might have not been that much fun....

(Where's the fun in letting someone else fix your bot?)

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Unread 12-11-2001, 08:26
Ken Leung's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
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well...

I have to say no, simply because it won't be fair to teams going to a regional far away.

There are teams from Alaska or Hawaii who have to travel by air to regionals they want to attend... And they are not the only ones. Teams like them will never be able to take the robot with them when they return to their home.

Where as teams with multiple regional competitions within driving distance can take full advantage if FIRST allow them to take home the robot.

So, should FIRST be fair to all teams, or should they be fair to some of the teams? I really don't know. Obviously this would work out if every team go to regional within a reasonable driving distance, but that's not going to happen for a while.
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Unread 12-11-2001, 16:36
Kyle Fenton Kyle Fenton is offline
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I say Yes

The time that you can bring your Robot back from Regionals, is very crucial especially if there are features or bugs you want to work on. And for the teams that are far away usually only attend one regional anyway. If a team has to shell out money for a plane because driving is far away, usually can't attend another regional, because of the airline prices. However there are teams that attend more than one regional with airline as transportation. And that is a disadvantage to them, but they will have to deal with it.
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Unread 12-11-2001, 19:32
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Re: Shipping

Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Martus
...
I will go out on a limb here, I know I will get all kinds of hate e-mails, but ........ I think all teams should keep their robot and bring or ship to the event as required. this allows the teams that cannot go to multiple events the time to practice and refine their machine. Think of the quality/competitive machines there would be. Afterall in Industry don't they keep improving a product once it is released? They don't just say live with your mistakes.
...
I agree with this. A team can never have enough driving practice, and there is always another feature to add, or part to fix on the robot. If all teams were allowed to keep their robots after the first event, I think everyone would be happy. The events are only 7 days apart... *shrug*

Then, there are those teams that try to build a robot the day before the competiton, or put the "robot" in the crate, and build a whole new one which is assembled in the pit. Blech... these people upset me.
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Unread 13-11-2001, 01:15
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My team attended the LA (3/15-3/17) and Silicon Valley (3/22-3/24) Regionals this past season like a few other San Jose based teams. I feel like our team had an unfair advantage over teams from Los Angeles, and Arizona because we drove our robot back to SJ on the 17th, and we had until Tuesday to drop our robot off at San Jose State (10 mins from our school).

I'm not saying that my team didn't benefit from this, we did. I believe that our success at San Jose and Nationals was a result of this extra time with our robot. But I feel upset that my team had the ability to take our robot home, and other teams couldn't. The teams from Arizona like Kingman couldn't have taken their robot home since it had to be at the venue on Tuesday/Wednesday of the next week since the two Regionals were back to back weekends.

Did the ChiefDelphi team take their robot home between the New York City (3/15-3/17) and Great Lakes Regional (3/22-3/24)? I don't mean to be picking on you guys.

Well... thinking a little bit more I looked on Mapquest to see how far Pontiac is from Ypsilanti, and it says ~44.1 miles. That's still close enough to drive a robot to drop it off at a competition and have a sizable amount of time to work on it or practice. I also checked to see how far Kingman, Az is from San Jose, and it says 578.4 miles (11 hours 30 minutes). I honestly do not remember the wording of the shipping rule, so please correct me if I misinterpret it. But I think this means that this Arizona team would have to either A.) Ship their robot from LA, without taking it home. B.) Fly it home, work on it on Sunday, then send it off Monday morning, at the latest, so that it can be at the San Jose Regional by Tuesday.

Is it really fair that a team like the Bionic Bulldogs has such less time to work on their robot at home? I think that having any kind of advantage like this is about as wrong as making spare parts after the robot is shipped.

I'll probably get a bunch of flack for this post, so I'll stop right now.

my $0.03

Last edited by Bill Gold : 13-11-2001 at 02:41.
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Unread 13-11-2001, 06:43
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Thumbs up 3 Days is a good thing...

FIRST has given teams 3 days with their robot after a regional for every year I have been involved except 2000.

I think that it is a good system.

Is it an advantage for teams that go to local regionals? Yes.

Is it an advantage for teams that go to multiple regionals? Yes.

But... ...it is not a secret advantage, nor is it the only advantage to going to multiple regionals (e.g. at this point it is also a major factor in qualifying for the Championship Event).

I think in the end, FIRST is well served by having teams go to multiple regionals. If teams get an advantage by going to more than one, that may serve a useful purpose by encouraging this practice.

Bottom line: Keep the rule that allows teams to keep their robots for the 3 days following a regional.

Joe J.
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Unread 13-11-2001, 12:31
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different perspective

By the previous replies, it seems obvious that this issue is viewed differently depending on which side of the country you are on. While initially it sounds great that all teams get to keep their robots for 3 days after a competition, I have to disagree "at this point in time."

Two years ago, when FIRST made the rule fair & consistent for all teams and said all robots were shippped directly from each event (no time to take home), the arguement was that broken robots would be much more frequent at the following reigonals. But this did not turn out to happen, as the regionals were all very successful, and the same percentage of teams, if not more, had fully functional robots at the regionals compared to the year before. Teams knew the rule, they prepared for it, repaired parts at home and brought them to the events, etc. But the rule did NOT result in more broken down robots at the competition.

I can understand letting the rule stand a couple years ago, when there were only a handful of teams west of the Mississippi. But now, if you drew a line from the east of Texas up to N. Dakota, you would find that over 250 teams are in these states. But only 4 regionals covering about 20 states!

With the current situation, the "keep your robot for 3 days" is completely unfair - as almost all of those 250 teams can not. I understand the Eastern US & Michigan teams want to keep the rule as they are able to benefit from it, but my feeling is that the numbers are to the point where it is just too unfair to too many teams. The teams east of the Mississippi already have the inherent advantage of having 13 regionals to compete in, saving all that travel money, & getting more time with the robot at multiple competitions. Is an even bigger advantage really needed?

If people are really interested in having a somewhat fair playing field, I think the rule should go back to "ship directly from the event" - at least for 2 or 3 years until there are 25 regionals or so, and a high percentage of teams would be able to keep their robots to work on them.

Again, the "ship direct" rule did not cause the problems people fear it would 2 years ago, as teams adjusted & prepared very well. Out west, keeping the robot would only help the teams in LA & SJ, but my concern is for all the teams in Arizona, Nevada, Alaska, Hawaii, Oregon, Colorado, the Dakota's, etc.... FIRST is a nationwide community now and I think the rules should reflect this - not giving VERY LARGE advantages to some regions over others. Hopefully in a couple years, 80-90% of teams will have local regionals, not just some, at which point it would be fair to let teams keep their robots for a couple days.

(on a side note, many coaches I know LOVED having the robot gone & shipped. Gave everyone a couple days to recoup, address their "regular" life apart from the robot, spend a little time with family, plus the kids can catch up a little in school - all nice aspects of the "can't keep the robot" rule.)

My 2 cents.

Last edited by Jason Morrella : 13-11-2001 at 13:19.
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Unread 13-11-2001, 13:28
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Not my recollection...

That is not my recollection.

As to direct ship causing no significant problems, that is just not the case. Yes, teams worked around it, but for the most part it was a hassle.

It also was a problem that it was basically next to impossible to get your robot next to a welder for several months.

Finally, at least one robot I am aware of broke in the elimination rounds for the simple lack of being able to run it in a quiet room where the stress on the machine would have certainly been heard. I am not asking for sympathy, I am just saying that to so easily dismiss the problems teams had does not match my memory of the events.

As to teams west of the Mississippi being at a disadvantage, I am not sure what you are saying. Is your point that every geographic region should be equally disadvantaged? Should FIRST limit the density of machine shops to the level available in Hawaii or Alaska?

Beyond this, there have always been teams travelling long distances to get to regionals. NYC, TX, NH, & CT are not particularly close to Detroit -- even by Western US standards, yet we have attended them and gotten our robot home in time to repair them. Nor are we unique in this -- some Florida teams come up to the Great Lakes Regional, some Midwestern teams made it to the KSC Regional. The list goes on.

Part of the process is to figure out a way to get your robot home in time to repair it. For us that has meant forming a robot transport sub-team that leaves on Sat. night after the competition and gets home sometime on Sunday. While this is not a particularly pleasant option, it is one that is available to most teams for basically gas money & a few hundred bucks for a trailer rental.

I know that this is somewhat of a judgement call, but I still come down on the side of robots shipping 3 days after the regional is over.

Other opinions welcome.

Joe J.
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Unread 13-11-2001, 15:48
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Shipping direct was not a problem for our team in 2000. At least not a shipping problem. We went to Great Lakes, Michigan, and Nationals.

What was disgusting was what FIRST did to make up for the shipping constraint. Teams were allowed to build at home until the Tuesday after a Regional and BRING their work to the next competition.

From one regional to the next, some robots received complete facelifts, not just repairs.

At least by saying teams can bring their robots home and work until Tuesday, you know they can't work PAST Tuesday. There is a shipping receipt, or bill of lading, or some kind of proof that the robot is out of their hands. But, if FIRST says that teams must stop working on parts after Tuesday and they can just walk the parts into the next competition, then there is no proof.

So I say let all teams work until Tuesday and then ship it to the next site. But, then again, my team may only be going to one competition this year anyway so we can work on the robot all we want after that

-Jason
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Unread 13-11-2001, 18:33
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Shipping

There were problems with shipping the robots from the events.

Here is one:
Small teams with limited design software were not able to make changes and fabricate parts without the robot. You would see them frantically taking pictures, tape rules and sketches, all so that they could make replacement parts to bring to the next competition. And have them not fit correctly, and were not tested.
Larger budget teams from companies that had the robot designed on CAD had a real advantage.

Here is another:
Several large budget teams made a second robot (Chief Delphi was NOT one of them) to make fabrications and changes. In one case I know for a fact that they swapped out whole sub-assemblies at the event. Is this really fair???

And another:
I disagree, I was witness to more frantic repairs, less growth in quality at the second events that many teams attended. Most teams I talked with were against the change.

Finally.......
Shipping cost is a real issue. Being able to deliver the robot to the second local dryage is a real cost saver. With the economy as it is every penny is important.

My 5 1/2 cents ( inflation ).
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Unread 13-11-2001, 20:05
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As to my opinion, which may or may not matter, I do believe that the benefits of keeping robots a while far outweigh the perceived unfairness. As many have brought up, driver training is important, no, ESSENTIAL to the success of the team almost as much as selecting alliance partners is. Plus, regionals give a good chance to tweak the small things of a robot that couldn't be seen in isolated practice environments. This leads to a higher degree of competition come nationals.
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Unread 13-11-2001, 23:03
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Re: well...

Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Leung
I have to say no, simply because it won't be fair to teams going to a regional far away.

There are teams from Alaska or Hawaii who have to travel by air to regionals they want to attend... And they are not the only ones. Teams like them will never be able to take the robot with them when they return to their home.

You are right, Ken. The dates for shipping of robots has always been unfair to distant teams. We have always been the last ones to get our robots and the first to have to ship them out, as a result we lose a tremendous amount of what was supposed to be construction time.
A just resolution is for FIRST to get rid of the rule that teams can keep their robots for 3 days after a competition. This year we are planning to attend two regionals and there is no way for us to fix our robots in between San Jose and LA, even if we wanted to. To me this rule give unfair advantage to teams that live close to the regional over teams that live far away, especially because this year the scores will determine whether or not a team will get to go to the championship event in the future. IMOH.
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