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I vote for electromechanical brakes & clutches...

Posted by Joe Johnson.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 6/27/2000 3:24 PM MST


In Reply to: What else do we want? posted by Andy Baker on 6/22/2000 7:12 AM MST:



As for me, I am pretty happy with the kit as it is.

For my own selfish reasons, I would really like to have some electromechanical clutches & brakes. To my way of thinking, this would open up a whole new area of exciting mechanisms that would be possible.

How about a reliable shifting transmission? Clutches can make this more easily done.

How about a lift mechanism doesn't let you down after time expires? No problem with a brake in the kit.

What do you think?

Joe J.


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Re: I vote for electromechanical brakes & clutches...

Posted by Thomas A. Frank.

Engineer on team #121, The Islanders/Rhode Warrior, from Middletown (RI) High School and Naval Undersea Warfare Center.

Posted on 6/30/2000 9:16 AM MST


In Reply to: I vote for electromechanical brakes & clutches... posted by Joe Johnson on 6/27/2000 3:24 PM MST:



: For my own selfish reasons, I would really like to have some electromechanical clutches & brakes.

I'll second that motion also!

The ratchet we built for our extension mechnaism was a work of art, but I would have preferred something simpler.

Tom


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Wheels Wheels Wheels

Posted by Joe Johnson.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 6/27/2000 3:48 PM MST


In Reply to: What else do we want? posted by Andy Baker on 6/22/2000 7:12 AM MST:



I vote for more wheels.

How about a rule that allows any 'off the shelf' wheel (including casters) with a diameter under 10 inches?

This could make for some very cool looking robots. Think of all the bike wheels, tractor wheels, etc. that teams could use. Scan though the pages of McMaster just to get a feel for the variety that is out there.

Very cool -- I say bring it on.

Joe J.


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Re: Wheels Wheels Wheels

Posted by Jason Iannuzzi.

Engineer on team #11, Marauders, from Mt. Olive HS. and BASF, Rame Hart, CCM.

Posted on 6/30/2000 7:27 AM MST


In Reply to: Wheels Wheels Wheels posted by Joe Johnson on 6/27/2000 3:48 PM MST:



Yes, wheels!

I've never been a big fan of the wheelchair wheels, and it seems like such a waste of time to have to design/manufacture custom wheels. This seems like a no-brainer to me.

I'm starting to think they should dump the pneumatics. We actually used them this year, just for the challenge of course, but they seem like such a waste of space and weight. I'd rather see a few more motor options instead, maybe another high torque one. Sorry SMC.

Other than that, I'm pretty content. Removing the limit on the structural materials and gears/sprockets/chain was all I ever wanted.


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Re: What else do we want?

Posted by Andrew Rudolph.

Student on team NASA KSC/Michael Krop Senior High School from Michael Krop Senior High School sponsored by NASA Kennedy Space Centre.

Posted on 6/29/2000 6:17 PM MST


In Reply to: What else do we want? posted by Andy Baker on 6/22/2000 7:12 AM MST:



Well i Feel that some good servo motors would be real handy..Not like the little Hobby servos im talking like the ones used on equipment... THey are very good for making small manipulator arms and such...

Andrew


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Re: What else do we want?

Posted by Justin Ridley.

Engineer on team #221, MI Roboworks, from Michigan Technological University.

Posted on 6/30/2000 10:08 AM MST


In Reply to: What else do we want? posted by Andy Baker on 6/22/2000 7:12 AM MST:



I want all of these things. . . and you know what else. I want a couple more drill motors. Just think of having 4 of them in the kit. You could use all four of them in the drivetrain or if you didn't you would have two awsome motors to use somewhere else in the robot. I'm sure it won't happen, but it'd be nice. If not I think we're gonna need something similar to the drill motors only stronger. . .I think were getting close to weight limits these two motors are going to be able to throw around as hard as some teams do for two minutes. Maybe not. Then again maybe the wieght limit will continue to stay where it is. Either way I want two more motors .

-Justin


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60 amp fuse problems...

Posted by Joe Johnson.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 6/30/2000 7:33 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: What else do we want? posted by Justin Ridley on 6/30/2000 10:08 AM MST:



I could go for this in a big way. BUT... There are two issues that will have to be addressed.

#1) FIRST BUYS these motors more less at retail prices. This is one of the most expensive parts of the kit for FIRST. How would folks feel about FIRST allowing people to use the two in the kit plus 2 more that they could purchase as desired? This would be acceptable to me, but I know that many teams struggle to buy stuff for the robot. Having to buy $100 - $200 more may be a struggle for some teams. Your opinion?

#2) 60 Amp fuses are already a problem for a number of teams. There is a work around but it is not widely known (look for a whitepaper if FIRST does not provide a better fusing solution in 2001). Even the work around I have may be challenged with 2 more current hogs on board. What do you think about more teams blowing fuses and watching the rest of the match as spectators? Is this sort of a case where FIRST gives us enough rope to hang ourselves, but we are expected to be careful to avoid problems? It is okay by me. What do you think?

Joe J.


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Re: 60 amp fuse problems...

Posted by Matt Leese.

Student on team #7 from Parkville High School and NASA, Black & Decker, AAI, Raytheon.

Posted on 7/1/2000 7:56 AM MST


In Reply to: 60 amp fuse problems... posted by Joe Johnson on 6/30/2000 7:33 PM MST:



The main problem I could see with this whole plan is that drill motors is that drill motors have varying strengths and this could give an advantage to teams that are able to spend more money on the drill motors themselves. Now if it was only limited to buying the same drill motors that come in the kit, that may work. I think that could be a good idea but it does give more of an advantage to those teams that can spend, yet again.

I really think that if you're blowing the 60 amp fuse you're really doing something wrong. It usually is symptomatic of bad wiring or bad motor outputs (i.e. bad ratio, etc.). I don't think the extra drill motors would add to this because I know many teams used two drill and two fisher price motors on the drive and didn't seem to have problems. I personally think this is more of a non-issue.

Matt Leese

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The drills are not FP or Delphi Power Sliding Door Motors...

Posted by Joe Johnson.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 7/1/2000 8:41 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: 60 amp fuse problems... posted by Matt Leese on 7/1/2000 7:56 AM MST:




I know of a number 'good' teams that had problems in 1999 & 2000 with blowing 60 Amp fuses in the heat of battle.

I don't want to name names, but believe me it is possible to have things 'right' yet still draw enough current to blow that 60 amp fuse.

Adding two more 100+ amp stall load motors to the robot will only increase the number of teams that will blow that fuse.

Joe J.


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Re: The drills are not FP or Delphi Power Sliding Door Motors...

Posted by Matt Leese.

Student on team #7 from Parkville High School and NASA, Black & Decker, AAI, Raytheon.

Posted on 7/1/2000 6:53 PM MST


In Reply to: The drills are not FP or Delphi Power Sliding Door Motors... posted by Joe Johnson on 7/1/2000 8:41 AM MST:



I think the fact that they're 100+ amp stall motors should have little to do with it because the 30 amp circuit breakers should trigger before that. Also, I was under the impression that the drill motors were of higher quality meaning that overall they should draw less power for most use (correct me if I'm wrong). I haven't seen all that many fuses blow on the so called 'good teams' (I'd prefer not to use it as it sounds too elitist) but from what I've seen it tends to occur when those teams try to push their robots too hard. The 60 amp fuse just places a good limit on how far the robots can be pushed. It also helps to limit the amount of complexity of the robot because you can't really run every single motor provided or the fuse will blow.

Matt Leese, who thinks this discussion will go on for awhile now....


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Re: The drills are not FP or Delphi Power Sliding Door Motors...

Posted by Justin Stiltner.

Student on team #388, Epsilon, from Grundy High School and NASA, American Electric Power, Town of Grundy.

Posted on 7/1/2000 7:36 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: The drills are not FP or Delphi Power Sliding Door Motors... posted by Matt Leese on 7/1/2000 6:53 PM MST:



This is the way i see it
you have 10 motors and the rotating becon
that means if all the motors draw the same amount you have 5.45 amps for each motor not enough to run a robot very well... but most teams dont use all of them but most robots had 4 the drills and then 2 others which left you with 15 amps for each one &thats not including the becon or the control system or the speed controllers. I dont think that the fuse is big enough evean thow we have the 30amp breakers if you have one close to tripping and then 2 more at about half capacaty that would blow the fuse. I think we should have either 2 batterys or 2 fuses.

Just my 2 Cents

Justin Stiltner
Team #388
Epsilon
Grundy Va,



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Re: The drills are not FP or Delphi Power Sliding Door Motors...

Posted by Matt Leese.

Student on team #7 from Parkville High School and NASA, Black & Decker, AAI, Raytheon.

Posted on 7/2/2000 2:34 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: The drills are not FP or Delphi Power Sliding Door Motors... posted by Justin Stiltner on 7/1/2000 7:36 PM MST:



Well, obviously using all four drill motors would in no way be required. You could use none for all anyone would care. You'd have to engineer with trade-offs (isn't that more like the real world then?).

Adding a second fuse isn't going to do anything at all -- you have to use a higher amp fuse. They'd need to raise the weight limit if we were to use two batteries (they're at least 1/10th of the robot weight right now and there's no way you're packing a second one on). It'd also be much more of a pain to wire.

Matt Leese


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Re: The drills are not FP or Delphi Power Sliding Door Motors...

Posted by Justin Stiltner.

Student on team #388, Epsilon, from Grundy High School and NASA, American Electric Power, Town of Grundy.

Posted on 7/2/2000 7:50 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: The drills are not FP or Delphi Power Sliding Door Motors... posted by Matt Leese on 7/2/2000 2:34 PM MST:



What I ment by the second fuse was to have 2 main supply lines running different parts of a robot (the left side motors be on one and the right side motors be on another ect.)
but this is also like Dean said 'we give you too little time, too little resorces...' What I think it all boils down to is that it is an engineering challange to make your robot more efficent while still being effective. And im shure that the engineers know what I am talking about.

Justin Stiltner
Team #388
Epsilon
Grundy Va,



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more thoughts on 60 Amp fuses

Posted by Joe Johnson.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 7/3/2000 1:55 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: The drills are not FP or Delphi Power Sliding Door Motors... posted by Matt Leese on 7/1/2000 6:53 PM MST:



Let me begin by saying that I didn't mean to be elitist by the 'good' teams comment so much as I wanted to convey that it is not a problem with yahoo teams with no engineering help and no experience.
Believe me, there were a number of very well thought of teams with a number or regionals champ banners hanging in their gyms that ran into problems with the 60 amp fuse. That said, I also I know of a number of rookie teams that had difficulties as well.

As to your assessment that the drill motors are somehow of higher quality and that this higher quality allowing them to draw less current, this is just nonsense. The drill motors are motors just like any other in the kit. They follow the same laws concerning speed, torque & current that the other motors in the kit follow. As to quality, I would argue that other motors have higher quality based on my observations of % failures on FIRST robots.

To my mind, the drill motors have two significant differences from all the other motors in the kit that make the special:

#1 They are, by far, the most powerful motors in the kit (and, not coincidentally, they draw by far, the most current of any motor in the kit)

#2 They are the most difficult motor to mechanically interface to (specifically, the output shaft is difficult to reliably connect to & the overall shape of the housings makes the drills the most difficult motor to hold reliably).

After saying all this, I would actually welcome more of these motors in the kit. However, I am quite sure that without some help or a rules change, a lot of teams (veteran & rookie alike) will have 60 amp fuse problems.

Just my two cents.

Joe J.


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Re: 60 amp fuse problems...

Posted by James Jones.

Engineer on team #267, The Demolition Squad, from North Broward & St Andrews and Motorola.

Posted on 7/5/2000 11:19 AM MST


In Reply to: 60 amp fuse problems... posted by Joe Johnson on 6/30/2000 7:33 PM MST:



Joe, your killing me. If you have a way of increasing the capacity of that fuse and you plan on sharing it with us later why not share it now? Anecdotaly (sp?) I think the fuses degrade with severe use over time so we started replacing them every round and that seemed to help although the people manning the spare parts booth gave us dirty looks.

Just a few comments on this discussion as well.

We used 2 drills and 2 FP's for the drive system this year and had fuse problems. Since the problems don't generally show up until your robot is fully loaded with all its parts and the students are driving aggresively many teams are not going to find out they have a fuse problem until right before the robot ships or at competition. If the only way to fix the problem is a gear ratio change, many teams are going to be stuck because they won't have the time or resources to do this.

Even if you allow 2 fuses, 4 drills can suck the system voltage down so low that the controller starts acting up, so now you need 2 batteries and a higher weight limit.

My opinion is that the robots are fast enough. We were 10 ft/sec at 127 lbs and if we hit another robot hard pieces tended to fly (you should'a had bumpers). Some people thought that we were just out to destroy people but that was not the design intent of the robot, it was the speed. If the robots get even faster I think there is going to be serious carnage on the field. The other thing that makes me nervous about faster robots is debug and practice sessions as well as demos where people may be near a running robot. If our robot hit somebody hard it could very easily break an ankle. I think the robots are fast enough.

That said, we're planning on being faster next year :~)






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