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Unread 13-06-2003, 21:04
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C#, being the Microsoft child that it is, is only on cellphones that have WinCE on it. The other cellphones have their own OS which the mobility of JAVA can conform too.
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Unread 14-06-2003, 17:52
Rickertsen2 Rickertsen2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Flowerday
Well, I suppose it depends on which forum you went to. I believe the quote from the Illinois forum was "There will be a new robot controller next year."

Personally, my guess is that it won't use PBASIC, simply because we're already using the fastest BASIC Stamp. C++ isn't very realistic for a low-cost embedded microcontroller. Too much overhead, and too much code space required. C might happen, but honestly I think that would be just too complicated for a good percentage of teams to deal with (teams that don't have software types as mentors, and don't have any students who already know it). I can only hope they don't use Java (I've never used a Java program that didn't feel slow and bloated, and I imagine a microcontroller based implementation wouldn't be much better).

I would expect so see something like the BasicX chip: for one thing, it's pin-compatible with the current controller, meaning IFI could probably drop it in to their current control system with no other hardware changes. It uses a dialect of BASIC, which is nice for inexperienced teams. It has 400 bytes of RAM and executes 65,000 instructions/second versus the BS2SX's 10,000.

Anyway, this is all speculation on my part. I believe we really will see a new user CPU next year, but like I said before, it's all up in the air until you hear the official announcement.
a Basic X would be great. read THIS.
One possibility i have been thinking about is having a socket where a BasicX24, BS2/BS2SX/BS2P24, OOPIC-C, Atom-24, etc.... could be inserted. These chips are pin for pin compatible and completely interchangable. What about a "real"(assembly programmed) microcontroller and a high level language compiler.
As for a language being too complicated for rookies... I think its complete BS. I RT%M and got aquanted with the control system in about an hour or so. Its not hard. If you know one language its not hard to learn another. I would love a change.
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Unread 14-06-2003, 19:12
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pin for pin compatible doesn't buy much...

Pin for Pin compatible doesn't really buy much for you in this environment.

Innovation First has to design a system to work with these different chips. I doubt that they are so compatible that they could each be plugged in and made to work with the same Master CPU code.

As to BasicX -- I have tried it and it is pretty cool. I especially like the multitasking ability. The main drawback as far as I can see is that the 1000 bytes of ram seem like a lot until you actually have a few tasks running. It especially stinks that the BasicX version of the Pbasic Debug command pops stuff onto the task stack. This can be a disaster because a complex debug statement can easily overrun the stack and crash the code.

It would be cool, but it is a bit scary to think about folks having random code crashes due to stack overflows.

Joe J.
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Unread 14-06-2003, 21:06
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Re: pin for pin compatible doesn't buy much...

Quote:
Originally posted by Joe Johnson
Pin for Pin compatible doesn't really buy much for you in this environment.

Innovation First has to design a system to work with these different chips. I doubt that they are so compatible that they could each be plugged in and made to work with the same Master CPU code.

As to BasicX -- I have tried it and it is pretty cool. I especially like the multitasking ability. The main drawback as far as I can see is that the 1000 bytes of ram seem like a lot until you actually have a few tasks running. It especially stinks that the BasicX version of the Pbasic Debug command pops stuff onto the task stack. This can be a disaster because a complex debug statement can easily overrun the stack and crash the code.

It would be cool, but it is a bit scary to think about folks having random code crashes due to stack overflows.

Joe J.
Why wouldn't it work. Please explian.
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Unread 16-06-2003, 13:46
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Tasks and Stacks...

Every task has to have a place to store data. As you define new tasks, you also define a stack space.

So far, so good.

But, BasicX is a language for consenting adults, by which I mean that it depends on you to be a adult and to alot enough stack space so that the stack does not overflow.

If you DO overflow the stack, you overwrite the data from another task -- and as likely as not the data overwritten will be a non-trivial byte of data, the program counter for that task for example. This is sort of a disaster. All the more so because I had a problem with Task A and Task B crashed! Very tricky to debug.

The problem is made worse by the fact that the print.debug command pushes data onto the stack, and lots of it. You can have program that is working just fine and the it crashes simply because the number you are trying to display cannot be displayed as "5.30" but has to switch to "5.3333E00"

These kinds of bugs would be very hard for many teams to discover, yet alone repair.

Joe J.
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Unread 16-06-2003, 14:06
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Re: Tasks and Stacks...

Quote:
Originally posted by Joe Johnson
Every task has to have a place to store data. As you define new tasks, you also define a stack space.

So far, so good.

But, BasicX is a language for consenting adults, by which I mean that it depends on you to be a adult and to alot enough stack space so that the stack does not overflow.

If you DO overflow the stack, you overwrite the data from another task -- and as likely as not the data overwritten will be a non-trivial byte of data, the program counter for that task for example. This is sort of a disaster. All the more so because I had a problem with Task A and Task B crashed! Very tricky to debug.

The problem is made worse by the fact that the print.debug command pushes data onto the stack, and lots of it. You can have program that is working just fine and the it crashes simply because the number you are trying to display cannot be displayed as "5.30" but has to switch to "5.3333E00"

These kinds of bugs would be very hard for many teams to discover, yet alone repair.

Joe J.
EEEWWW!! Thats sounds like it could be quite a pain to debug. Maybie BasicX would be a little hard for some teams. That still leaves lots of other options though.
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Unread 11-07-2003, 21:04
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The New RC

I doubt it would be in C++ because they would probably give us a RC similar to last years. It would be in C if anything. Does anybody know what the RC is, what the specs are on it, and where docs and incs could be downloaded?
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Unread 11-07-2003, 21:18
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working with many different parallax and ifi items before, they mainly use versions of basic, it seems like next year pbasic will still be able to use but it seems the main language would be basicx, it is capable of have higher storage and also faster reaction times to input sensors, seems like autonomous will be present again.

~Mike
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Unread 11-07-2003, 21:19
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Re: The New RC

Quote:
Originally posted by KWachowski27
I doubt it would be in C++ because they would probably give us a RC similar to last years. It would be in C if anything. Does anybody know what the RC is, what the specs are on it, and where docs and incs could be downloaded?
The old RC has been taken apart and examined by at least one of the engineers from team 111, Wildstang. I believe Dave Flowerday (I apologize if I am mistaken) has made a few posts on this topic, but I can't find them, right now.

The control system is vaguely (not too many really technical details) documented by IFI in the various documents on their website ( www.innovationfirst.com/firstrobotics/ ). So far as I can remember from various sources (if you ask, I can probably dig them up), the BS2sx is just a dumb interface to two PIC chips that handle signal processing, PWM, sensor inputs, etc.

At the FIRST Team Forums, they said that IFI was renovating the entire control system. The meaning of this is up to interpretation, and I doubt that every single FIRST rep said the exact same thing, but I tend to agree with you. I find it highly unlikely that we'd find anything other than C (it's very common in the uC world, it's well-known (most engineers could work their way around the syntax, probably, anyway), and it's nowhere near as convoluted as ASM can be (not that I don't like ASM, mind you).

Anyway, I've probably said too much, not to mention the fact that I've probably said it all before...
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Unread 11-07-2003, 21:23
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Re: Re: The New RC

Cool. By "renovating", do you mean that they are massively overhauling the RC unit, making minor changes to the current one, or replacing the RC completely?

Quote:
Originally posted by FotoPlasma
The old RC has been taken apart and examined by at least one of the engineers from team 111, Wildstang. I believe Dave Flowerday (I apologize if I am mistaken) has made a few posts on this topic, but I can't find them, right now.

The control system is vaguely (not too many really technical details) documented by IFI in the various documents on their website ( www.innovationfirst.com/firstrobotics/ ). So far as I can remember from various sources (if you ask, I can probably dig them up), the BS2sx is just a dumb interface to two PIC chips that handle signal processing, PWM, sensor inputs, etc.

At the FIRST Team Forums, they said that IFI was renovating the entire control system. The meaning of this is up to interpretation, and I doubt that every single FIRST rep said the exact same thing, but I tend to agree with you. I find it highly unlikely that we'd find anything other than C (it's very common in the uC world, it's well-known (most engineers could work their way around the syntax, probably, anyway), and it's nowhere near as convoluted as ASM can be (not that I don't like ASM, mind you).

Anyway, I've probably said too much, not to mention the fact that I've probably said it all before...
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Unread 11-07-2003, 21:43
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from what i have heard they are updating the chip so it has more memory for storage and it looks like the controller may be updated a little but don't expect much...
~Mike
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Unread 12-07-2003, 00:24
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Re: Re: Re: The New RC

Quote:
Originally posted by KWachowski27
Cool. By "renovating", do you mean that they are massively overhauling the RC unit, making minor changes to the current one, or replacing the RC completely?
Heh. Well, that's the question. If I'm not mistaken, there were statements that there will be "a new language" for the control system, and that IFI would be releasing information concerning their changes within the next few weeks (they said late June was unlikely, and July was much more likely), but you know how these kinds of things are with deadlines.

I don't think that anyone, besides employees of IFI, knows much about the extent of the renovations.
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Unread 12-07-2003, 01:05
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I've heard from 2 different people that next year there will be more of a plug and play system, less programming more clicking. Obviously this is a rumor and i have no proof or anything, and won't bother claiming, "knowing someone at first" I personally would find this sad though, unless you could code on your own and choose not to use the other system.
-Eric
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Unread 12-07-2003, 02:09
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Quote:
Originally posted by DucktapeRaptor
I've heard from 2 different people that next year there will be more of a plug and play system, less programming more clicking. Obviously this is a rumor and i have no proof or anything, and won't bother claiming, "knowing someone at first" I personally would find this sad though, unless you could code on your own and choose not to use the other system.
-Eric
I see. I sure hope that that rumor is false - it would be a shame. It seems unlikely thought because the FIRST people claimed that they were trying to involve more programming. I guess all we can really do is wait for them to announce it though.
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Unread 12-07-2003, 18:50
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just from what was said at many of the forums, implied that they wanted more autonomous programming, meaning they would need a better language (BasicX) and a larger chip. The plug and play rumor i have heard also and i hope for the games sake that it is false, plug and play would cause the game to be toned down more or less...
~Mike
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