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View Poll Results: Is Battlebots I.Q. a threat to FIRST?
Nope, true quality and decency will show through, XFL 77 34.53%
Although Battlebots will climb up, they won't be that big, think UPN vs. NBC, ABC, or CBS 56 25.11%
They will be on the same level, like American and National baseball leagues 39 17.49%
Battelbots IQ is a better concept and will triumph over FIRST 12 5.38%
Don't Care 39 17.49%
Voters: 223. You may not vote on this poll

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Unread 19-04-2002, 19:18
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I think that the fact that Mr. Bastioni is one of the founding fathers of the BBIQ program speaks for the fact that this program will have a major impact on the nation at large.

I've met Mr. Bastoni several times, (We still miss the Rumble at the Rock, is BBIQ having one?) and he is definatly a huge inspriation to those who are around him.

Nice to see your still around Mr. B, I'll tell Moe you said hi.
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Unread 19-04-2002, 21:52
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Frank's "Math" is Awesome!

Frank,

You made a great choice!

And I am keenly aware that you do not need my approval to validate your choice...but I'd like the opportunity to share a possibly worthy point. So please forgive me.

You and the community of learners at your school "Did the math" necessary to make the right choices for your program...and that is the simple message for all of us.

What you did Frank is the very embodiment of "Deterministic Design" as outlined in the lecture notes from the MIT Design Manufacturing Course...a course started by Woodie...a course that served as the model for FIRST...and a host of other engineering programs ...and is currently managed by Prof. Alexander Slocum at MIT...

Read the notes from this course Frank...You'll love it!

http://pergatory.mit.edu/2.007/lectures/lectures.html


Of course you have an open mind...and better yet, your using it to make important decisions....open minded people do not necessarily arrive at the same conclusions...good grief no...History provides us with great stories of intensely debated philosophies, scientific conclusions and ideologies...and it is this rich and passionate debate that births ideas based on evidence and research....an incremental and iterative process of getting closer and closer to what is true...to what works best...given the design parameters. A process based on rsearch and knowledge, not on opinion and emotion.

After all...can you honestly say with any certainty which FIRST bot is THE BEST in any given season? Or which BattleBot is the best..I think not. The "Best Bot" is simply indeterminate math...the answer changes every time you do the problem...that is the fun of it...

The 2.007 lecture notes begins with a quote from Ralph Waldo Emerson...

"
Enthusiasm is one of the most powerful engines of success. When you do a thing, do it with all your might. Put your whole soul into it. Stamp it with your own personality. Be active, be energetic, be enthusiastic and faithful and you will accomplish your object. Nothing great was ever achieved without
enthusiasm".....

Your enthusiasm shows in the effort you put into making your decision...your Principal's enthusiasm shows in the effort she put into working with you and your team to arrive at the conclusion that FIRST was the best program choice for your school....and undoubtedly it is....

Our school administrators, our teachers and our students "Did the Math" also...and simply came up with a different conclusion..just like we all come up with different robot designs given the same universe of parts and game objectives...

It's OK to think different Frank...in fact it's a good thing!

I only ask that people consider that the functional requirements, and thus the "Math" is different for every school, or youth organization looking to involve itself in technological programming.

FIRST is a great program, and certainly the best program for your school needs...but the needs or requirements or logistics of school based programs are mutable...they change.

This is why it is important that there are choices for others to make...what fun would it be if there were only GM cars to choose from...good products (I own one)...but Hummers are cool too, and how about Hondas? or the nearly 25 other major auto manufacturers on this planet?

Choices are a good thing...

Our team was blessed with many great engineering mentors, parents and administrators...and of course...students! We were, and we remain passionate about what we are doing...we worked hard, and still work hard to support FIRST in many ways...and we work equally hard to support BBIQ....

Your choice is a great one Frank...and so is ours...let's celebrate our good fortune...lets toast to all our successes...let's wish each other the very best in what we choose to do....

And let's do it with all the passion and enthusiasm we can possibly generate....and lets hope we are all successful...these are simply robot games Frank....just games....the important things are you and me and all the other fine people who play them....

I salute you Frank...you are decidedly "Open minded"...and you have the soul of a truth seeker. You will be succesful in whatever you choose to do.

Long live all engineering competitions that result in the development of a sense of community among the participants and foster a love for learning, knowing and doing things that teachers, mentors, administrators, parents and students can get passionate about...and there are hundreds that do this!


Frank...I'll pose this "Loaded" question for you to research...

Has there ever been a person who could claim both a FIRST and a BattleBots National Championship Title? and who would that be?

The point I would hope to illustrate here is that these competitions are not mutually exclusive...One does not in any way negate the other....They do not threaten eachother...they actually improve one another...my school administrators took pride in our having participated in both. They looked at the passion of the kids...and we managed the rest.

Our administrators do the the "Math" differently too. They recognize that the true danger lies in the shop tools we use to build the Robots. The shop tools we use are far more dangerous than any FIRST bot or BattleBot our students designed or built. We see little difference between the robot games we play, and the Hollywood animitronic engineers who work insanely hard to design and build intricate and electronically sophisticated models that they then destroy making movies. But, hey, that's just out POV, and we don't expect that anyone else has to share it...but they do...just like many (16000) people share your teams POV...and that is a good thing.

It's OK for each of us to do the math and arrive at different answers....and we can support eachothers conclusions completely, even though our conclusions are different!

Yeah diversity.

Good luck next year!

Mr.B
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Unread 19-04-2002, 22:11
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Wow, this is great. I never though such though out ideas will be here, thanks Mr. B and Frank!

There are three camps that are here/you can choose from; bias to FIRST, bias to BB and/or BBIQ, un-bias. Althoug everyone is bias to a degree, I think this post is the epitimy of what FIRS and BBIQ is about, meeting challanges and taking them head on.

Thanks and hope to see you at the Nats (PS Frank, look for Sparky 3.0!)
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Unread 20-04-2002, 04:52
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Re: Frank's "Math" is Awesome!

Has there ever been a person who could claim both a FIRST and a BattleBots National Championship Title? and who would that be?

It's funny you should ask that Mr B. Yes, there has been! Carlo Bertochini coached the '95 FIRST champion bot as well as his own mega-successful bot Biohazard.

All in all though, great posts though. I am so happy to see a coherent discussion about this topic; we're getting somewhere now.

Dan
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Unread 20-04-2002, 13:48
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I think Battlebots will become big when robot technology can be reached to everyone, including in low-income homes. Look at wrestling, that is a huge violent sport, and look how big it has become. When RC controllers, micro-chips&processors, etc... come down, i do think eveyone will be out for robots like battle bots. Hey, it's in human nature, when, for the most part, BIG things happen, they usually are violent, and everyone wants to know what happened...
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Unread 13-04-2005, 22:31
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Re: Battlebots I.Q.- A serious threat to FIRST or a half thought up cheep copy?

If this has already been discussed, I apologize; it's a long topic, and I could have very well overlooked concepts or posts while I was reading it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Attallah
I think Battlebots will become big when robot technology can be reached to everyone, including in low-income homes. Look at wrestling, that is a huge violent sport, and look how big it has become. When RC controllers, micro-chips&processors, etc... come down, i do think eveyone will be out for robots like battle bots. Hey, it's in human nature, when, for the most part, BIG things happen, they usually are violent, and everyone wants to know what happened...
It's worth pointing out - again - that the VEX kits will probably hit that level of affordability far before the BBIQ equivalent. Unless their marketing strategy is like Apple's, where a product is announced days or weeks before ship instead of months in advance, the VEX kits will definitely beat them to the market.

I probably shouldn't be voicing an opinion on BBIQ; I know next to nothing about the program. In this thread, however, people have mentioned that BBIQ doesn't require a new robot every year. I can see that leading to teams either using one design year after year or using one robot and patching it up as needed. The level of learning involved there pales in comparison to what FIRST demands every year.

I know that that's not how every team would operate, and that Woodie's quote about education being as much or as little as you want is spot on. Still, I think that BBIQ might achieve its goals more readily if they could find a way to ensure that the students are getting some kind of learning experience out of it, something beyond how to repair or rebuild.
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Unread 20-04-2002, 19:49
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i dont know if you guys read the new york times article last week, but they were comparing FIRST to the high school battlebats competition..... now we all know FIRST is better but they have so much media access, and the draw of the agressive quality
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Unread 21-04-2002, 22:22
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Warning - Long post (2/3 the maximum post length )

Hi everyone. I'm new (I just found this place looking for Isaac32 system information), I thought I'd chime in here.

To let you know where I'mcoming from - I haven't competed in FIRST. I never will, as I'm now in college. However, I would have, if my school had it available - however, it wasn't; I'm not sure if people hadn't heard of it, or if people didn't want to pay for it.

On the other side of things, I have competed at Battlebots, twice in fact. The first was with the bot Vortex during Season 3, May 2001, where we lost our first fight; the second was with Kobotsu at BBIQ a few weeks ago,where we went away 2-2. Vortex was built almost entirely with my own money - I put about $2,000 into it. Kobostu was more of a team effort, so I ended up paying about $1,500 of that (about half the cost of the bot, not including the Nicad batteries we reused from Vortex).

Both competitions have their difficulties -

One is that the students don't always do all the work - None of you can say with a straght face that every FIRST bot was built by the students on the team; Neither can I argue that every BBIQ bot was built by the students.

FIRST is expensive - There is no way, with what I paid to have a competative BBIQ bot, that I could build anything remotely competative for FIRST. I've heard of pelnty of FIRST bots costing over $30,000; I challenge you to find a BBIQ bot that cost half that; In the $3-$5,000 range is average, and there have been many junkyard bots build for under $1000; I'd be willing to wager that the average FIRST bot costs more then $5,000. BBIQ bots tended to be somewhat simplistic, with as few mechanisms as possible and often running the default Isaac code (though I take great pride in being the programmer on the team that won the "Best use of the IFI system" special award). These facts are not unrelated. If I had as much money as some of the FIRST teams have, you'd better believe I'd have put more stuff in there; Actually, I'm putting some systems in my next bot that haven't ever been seen in Battlebots before involving intelligent power handling and system power consumption balencing, and I'm doing it out of pocket - I spent this morning putting stuff up on ebay to be able to afford it.

Related is that the two events focus on different kinds of engineering. FIRST focuses on building complex mechanisms to accomplish odd and varied tasks; BBIQ focuses on making mechanisms capable of surviving extreme situations. I've learned a lot about making stuff that doesn't break, partially by seeing what happened to my bot in a couple of whopping hits. I got to see first-hand what made the design weak, and what made it strong. Both knowledge of what makes things strong and knowledge of what makes complex things work is necessary for a good engineer; There is no point in making something that performs a task that constantly breaks, and no point in making something that'll survive WWIII if it doesn't do anything.

So, now you can probably see my point - both are valuable. They are both valuable for different reasons, and they aren't directly comparable - Closer then apples and oranges, but it's not a totally inacurate analogy. I just wish everyone who's just spouting nonsense about how one event is so much better then the other would get off their high horse and take a look at how everything really is, and how it relates to real life - There is almost never one solution, one clear-cut way to do something; There are multiple avenues of success, each of which has it's own advantages and disadvantages.




Now that I've made my point, I'm just going to address a few things that have been posted:

Quote:
That, I like to think is the distinction between a FIRST robotics team and Battlebots IQ team. (limited to only 5 members 4 students 1 adult).
Actually, there were some teams that numbered over 20 individuals; However, there wasn't room in the pit (BB pits tend to be crowded). so only thatmany were allowed in the pits at one time. The teams were issued special pit cards that allowed the cards to be rotated through the team members so that everyone got to come in at some point.


Quote:
At battlebots IQ you see none of these things, and in fact thier robots arent very technical. In the finals there were 2 wedges squaring off. I highly doubt that in a first robot all you will see is a drive train. You wont see technologically advaced machines like thw wildstang robot out there.
There are technical innovations, they just aren't seen in the same way. In a FIRST competition, many of the innovations are external - special systems that allow the robot to perform special operations, often in cool or unique ways. The same happens at Battlebots - there are many cool and unique robots Unfortuately, the concept of KISS applies - many innovations break easily, and you don't see those unless you attend an event - only surviveable things make it to the televised rounds of the competition. Also, many of the innovations are of a different sort - New ways of joining materials, new structures, new kinds of robots.

There are a couple additional issues at work here - FIRST is much less freeform, so you have things meant to do similar things pitted against each other; It's easy to compare them. With battlebots, it's about as freeform as you can get - play within the ruleset, and you can do anything you want. Also, there's a matter of shear number - there's not as many Battlebots as there are FIRST robots. Statistically, you'll get more cool things, just because there's more things to pick them out of.



And to anyone who says BBIQ teams didn't show teamwork and good sportsmanship, they apparently haven't ever been in the pits at a BB event. Before my second fight, I spent 6 hours trying to fix my bot AND helping my next opponant fix theirs; They did likewise. We were both suffering from a similar failure, and both teams worked together to solve it, and then we both helped another team that later suffered the same problem. Everyone shared tools, expertise, workers, materials, knowledge. Except for the occasional bad egg (so rare it sparks massive debate whenever it does happen), BB events show nearly perfect sportsmanship (which unfortunately doesn't get on the show, since Comedy Central doesn't want to show it, conflict brings more money. As a side note, many BB builders don't like CC much due to the way they handle the show).

[I was going to address more statements, but seeing how I'd probably excede the post length limit, as well as my own patience given how long I've been typing, I think I'll stop now )

So, there you have it. Feel free to respond however you wish - I'll probably be back later tonight or tomorrow evening, I'll answer any questions anybody has (within what I know, of course).


Matt Hockenheimer
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http://www.team-vortex.net (Presently badly out of date )

Last edited by vortex : 21-04-2002 at 22:25.
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Unread 21-04-2002, 22:46
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Quote:
Originally posted by vortex
Everyone shared tools, expertise, workers, materials, knowledge. Except for the occasional bad egg (so rare it sparks massive debate whenever it does happen), BB events show nearly perfect sportsmanship (which unfortunately doesn't get on the show, since Comedy Central doesn't want to show it, conflict brings more money. As a side note, many BB builders don't like CC much due to the way they handle the show).Matt Hockenheimer
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Matt,

I'm not really surprised, both in the fact that people are great sportmans and that a large contingent dislikes the way the show is presented.

If you watch the interviews with the contestentans they ususally are complementing the robot that just destoryed theirs.
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Unread 21-04-2002, 23:02
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i disagree vortex.... just because you dont have a lot of money doesnt mean that you cant build a competent FIRST robot
it is true that some teams spend incredible amounts of money on thier robots...... but many dont

i guess the thing i dont like about battle bots is that the competition is so one sided...... its destroy or be destroyed.. it seems like there is little strategy (at least compared to FIRST).... i mean, just go check out the discussion in one of the other threads about ball bots and goal bots, its long and passionate, and nobody can be wrong or right

a man from my town built a battlebot, clambot ......... and while they won the competition, it never got aired because it wasnt glamorous..... see that dissapoints me too, because comedy central just shows the robots that bring the ratings
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Unread 22-04-2002, 01:11
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To clarify a few things:

1. The cost of the two programs...
BB IQ has ONE event in ONE city in the country - which means if your school is not from that city, it will cost anywhere from 10-40k to participate. I have spoken to a few teams who competed in BBIQ, and they all had to spend between 20-40k to build the robot and travel (air,hotel,food). However, FIRST has 17 (over 20 next year) events in the country - meaning it costs those schools MUCH less too participate in one FIRST event than BB IQ. The majority of teams I know of in California participate in FIRST with a budget below or around 10k. So the cost of FIRST is MUCH LESS than that of BB IQ for thousands of schools throughout the country located close to FIRST regionals. But if schools are close to FIRST and BB IQ, the costs are probably very similar, depending on the budget goals of the teams.

2. Teams with big budgets...
I have spoke to many BB's teams who have spent 25-50k on their robots. When FIRST began, maybe most teams were corporate based with big budgets - but that is not the norm anymore, as the majority of the close to 700 teams are successful with budgets in the 10k range. Plus, many of the "big" budget teams in FIRST actually spend a great deal of their resources on mentoring, workshops, off season competitions, community outreach, and other wonderful things which give back & help other schools, students, kids - and that part of the budget doesn't go to their "robot" at all. It's a great thing those teams do, and something which makes FIRST unlike ANY other high school program. The "big budgets" of many FIRST teams actually help other teams in their area. Do some teams have big budgets in both programs - yes. Do many teams have small budgets in both programs - yes.

3. FIRST has shown for years (to the chagrin of many) that it will choose to control the message it sends to kids and control the values it wants to promote, knowing that not giving up control of the game, message to kids, and values of the program to Television costs it money and exposure. BB & BBIQ choose not to make that same sacrifice - nothing wrong with that, just two different paths. Educators, engineers, and all people in FIRST and I'm sure many in BB IQ are all for getting kids into science, math, technology, and engineering. They just disagree a bit on the social responsibility to not promote/glamorize violence. Can FIRST or BB's find a way to make the game a TV draw (ratings) without selling out and giving into the way CC sells robotics (sex/violence)? That is the challenge I would like to see either/both programs tackle.

I wish people understood there is no competition between BBIQ and FIRST. The only thing about BBIQ which many educators and people who support FIRST object to is the end product, not what leads up to it. If BB IQ ever changed it's game so that it didn't promote violence, make violence the solution to problem (the way to victory), make violence sexy/fun, and so on - then there would be no debate - it would just be another great program and option for schools to participate in. But until it adopts a message and values which are acceptable to be promoted in a school atmosphere, then people will continue to debate if it should be in schools.

Some have said "I still don't fully agree w/ your assertion that fighting robots is worse than full contact sports". This is a valid question. So here is my answer:

It's how you win. That's it, that simple. I don't mind fighting robots, I consider FIRST robots to be fighting - just have rules. Teach kids there are rules, just like in real life. That you can compete, but you can't hurt/kill. Contact sports still have points, strategy, rules, and sportsmanship. Show kids that you win by doing better than your opponent without needing to kill/hurt/or disable them. That's the difference, at least to me.

I have heard BB IQ supporters defend criticism by pointing out that high schools have wrestling teams. That is true - wrestling is a competitive sport with rules much like FIRST: train hard, try to be strong, fast, agile, powerful, smart, etc... but if you break rules such as bite, break an arm, poke a person in the eye, or try to cut the other wrestlers head off with a chain saw then YOU are the loser. BB IQ would be the equivalent of a school starting a WWF wrestling team - all the pre event training would hold value - but once competing, if the other competitor happens to be faster, stronger, bigger, smarter, more agile than you - then don't worry about training harder to come back better, you can still win if you just hit them over the head with a chair, bite them, poke them in the eye, or hey, just push them into a "kill saw". Any principal in the country would be fired instantly for supporting or promoting a WWF team to their students - and rightfully so.

I have no problem with the WWF or BB's as entertainment shows on TV (I'd be lying if I said I didn't watch them on occasion or find them interesting). But what I find entertaining or fun outside of school really doesn't matter in the classroom - as a teacher I would be wrong to show/promote a WWF match in class. BB IQ has some good aspects similar to FIRST (kids building a robot, learning skills, challenging themselves, etc...), and I applaud those. But as long as violence is the end product, then the means to the ends don't justify it being a high school supported program.

But it's not an issue of competition - if/when BB IQ decides to promote a game without violence being the way to victory, I, and I think many, would support it just like we support FIRST. We aren't in a business here (at least FIRST isn't) and the two programs aren't in competition, we are all in this to help kids and send them the right messages. I have met a number of the top people associated with BB IQ. They are greatly respected by many in the FIRST community, and it is much deserved respect. No one does or should question the intentions of those people, there is no definitive right or wrong. There is just a difference of opinion about where the line should be drawn when it comes to promoting/glamorizing violence to kids. In the wonderful, intelligent, and respectful exchange between Frank and Mr. B, I obviously agree that every school should do what is best for their kids. It's no secret that I would feel Frank, his team, and his school made the right decision. (Frank, look forward to meeting you and seeing your team at the 2003 regional). But I appreciate the views of everyone on this thread and think/hope it has raised some good questions, plus maybe cleared up some mistaken assumptions about both programs.

I speak only for myself here and no one else, just my humble opinion. (I know, another long post...I apologize...but at least I post less than I did last year)

JM

Last edited by Jason Morrella : 22-04-2002 at 03:23.
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Unread 22-04-2002, 02:13
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The bottom line?

After posting on this thread and reading the direction in which it was going, I honestly stopped checking up on it.

Just out of curiosity, I checking again on this thread, and found it very thought provoking, how could so many people have so many views so passionately over the same issue?

I took a step back and realized, what FIRST has meant to me, is what I have made out of it. My expieriences do not neccessarily reflect those of others.

Being in the organization I have participated in, a primarily student-run organization and facing the unique hardships that our team has had has really made me feel good about this program.

I suppose each of these programs are a venue for engineers, mentors and students to spend their time and effort for and with.

What comes out of each of these programs greatly relies on what YOU as a person make out of it. It can be as little or as life changing as you want it to be.

I can say that I am a FIRST-o-holic, but at the same time I enjoy watching battlebots as a show.

That is my stance, that is what I think because that is what I make of it.

I hope many others can see it this way, and understand how others feel of the programs respectively.

There is no universal good and bad. But I know what's good for me.
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Unread 22-04-2002, 10:28
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a man from my town built a battlebot, clambot ......... and while they won the competition, it never got aired because it wasnt glamorous..... see that dissapoints me too, because comedy central just shows the robots that bring the ratings
If it had won the competition, it would have been aired - one thing CC does is air every finals match no matter what happened. He might have won a fight... but it takes winning two or three to even start getting recorded.


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BB IQ has ONE event in ONE city in the country - which means if your school is not from that city, it will cost anywhere from 10-40k to participate
I guess it's an issue of motivation - My team kept costs down by driving 17 hours straight to get there. Combined with 3K for the bot, I think we spent a total of 5k for the event.

Also, didn't FIRST only have one event in one city it's first time? I believe BB is going to regionals in the near future, so it will make this point moot.

Another point is that Battlebots are a bit more reusable - The first year of competition costs more, then most teams rebuild with parts they already have. FIRST is different every year, so they bots have to be totally rebuilt from scratch.


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I have spoke to many BB's teams who have spent 25-50k on their robots.
For regular Battlebots, yeah, I'd expect that. I can pretty confidently say no BBIQ bot cost that much, though. If one did, they wasted some serious cash, as it didn't show up in the bot.


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Can FIRST or BB's find a way to make the game a TV draw (ratings) without selling out and giving into the way CC sells robotics (sex/violence)? That is the challenge I would like to see either/both programs tackle.
BBIQ hasen't actually been on TV yet. Only regular BB has, and as I said, many BB builders disagree with how CC treats the show; That's just CC, not the competition itself.


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I have heard BB IQ supporters defend criticism by pointing out that high schools have wrestling teams. That is true - wrestling is a competitive sport with rules much like FIRST: train hard, try to be strong, fast, agile, powerful, smart, etc... but if you break rules such as bite, break an arm, poke a person in the eye, or try to cut the other wrestlers head off with a chain saw then YOU are the loser. BB IQ would be the equivalent of a school starting a WWF wrestling team - all the pre event training would hold value - but once competing, if the other competitor happens to be faster, stronger, bigger, smarter, more agile than you - then don't worry about training harder to come back better, you can still win if you just hit them over the head with a chair, bite them, poke them in the eye, or hey, just push them into a "kill saw". Any principal in the country would be fired instantly for supporting or promoting a WWF team to their students - and rightfully so.
Umm, most of that stuff is highly against wrestling rules. BB bots operate within the confines of the rule sets. It's a totally different thing.

Overall, I find it pretty hard to believe that BB encourages real life violence, as many rabid FIRST supporters seem to say. This comes from the voice of experience, I've been heavily involved with Battlebots for years and haven't seen that as an issue at any point in time. And if you aren't saying it causes RL violence... then what's the problem?



Now, I'm going to be up front about something here. I really do think FIRST is a better program for some schools. I also think BBIQ is a better program for others. And most of all, I think that any school that can should do both - They are different challenges, require different ways of thinking, and both are educational in a different way.

Last edited by vortex : 22-04-2002 at 10:30.
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Unread 22-04-2002, 19:58
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Hey, before things get out of hand, I wanted to say I respect your opinions, and I like what you have to say.

Thanks for continuing to post.
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Unread 22-04-2002, 20:21
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well, FISRT rulez ;-)

Hi everybody!

I think FIRST will live longer than Battlebots although Battlebots has its own TV-show every week and you only hear occasionly from FIRST on TV.

FIRST has every year a new game with new rules that make it a challenge to build this new robot that is able to achive the game challenge really well while Battlebots will always be "Destroy their robot and you win".

FISRT has more complex games that allow millions of different strategies and all robots are different from each other while you find certain types of robots again and again at Battlebots!

So long, Philip
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