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View Poll Results: Which organization has been more successful in interesting the public in robot techno
FIRST 28 30.77%
Battlebots 39 42.86%
both supplement each other 24 26.37%
Voters: 91. You may not vote on this poll

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Unread 05-07-2003, 20:41
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Now Or Later?

I think that BattleBots is having the biggest current impact. It is showing large numbers of people that there is something entertaining out there other than sports and reality shows that real people can participate in. But as FIRSTers continue to permeate the professional world, the effect it will have on our society and culture, both in terms of the advancement of the ideals that FIRST represents, and in the development of technological fields, the impact of FIRST will certainly eclipse that of BattleBots and related shows. Then again, perhaps such competitions will take a new direction as the impact of FIRST takes hold, and FIRSTers can continue their passion for competitive engineering in such an arena.
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Unread 05-07-2003, 21:01
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What you don't know about will not impact you. Out of 250 million people in the United States, im guessing 15,000 people participate in FIRST (That is a very generous number...its probably a lot less). .00006% of the United States participates. Besides the 15,000 how many people know what FIRST is when they see an article in the Newspaper, heard on the radio, or seen on TV? Not many. FIRST has failed repeatedly in the publicity department. Im not even going to get into Canada and Brasil

*ESPN was probably their best bet, but they couldn't keep them interested, so instead they show the World Series of Poker, NFL Films several times a day and other things.

*FIRST Water...where is this so called FIRST water that was supposed to hit the stores? Its been over a year since it was debuted, yet the only people I know that have it, saved it from the 2002 championships, or got it at the FIRST headquarters.

*Amazon.com.... Jeff Bezos talked about publicizing FIRST through his company, but instead the only thing Ive seen on it, is the "Buy your Segway from Amazon.com **Exclusive**" on the amazon.com banner. Last time I checked, the Segway isn't FIRST.

They make every attempt to try to find someone to publicize them, but have failed. Until FIRST can find someone that will make FIRST a household name, its more of just a private organizations that several hundred high schools.

On the other hand, Battlebots, Junkyard Wars, etc get put on the air left and right and they grow in population like wildfire because they have the TV publicity. It really doesnt matter how good the show is. Heck I could go off, write a show idea off the top of my head, get it on a major TV network and it would get out to the public more than FIRST would.

There is nothing wrong with FIRST and it is a great program. I should know, I've done it for 4 years, but I am very unhappy about how they promise year after year that they are going to get all this publicity but have nothing to show for it.


The first thing they need to do is get this on TV. Live, no 3 month tape delay crap or at 2:30 in the morning.
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Unread 05-07-2003, 22:23
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Definately Battlebots. Everybody knows about it, and it's probably inspired some people to build robots...or at least think about it. I mean, if you had never heard of FIRST, but saw Battlebots, wouldn't you think "I could do that!"?

And I really don't understand why so many FIRST people hate Battlebots. I mean, you still build a robot, and even though Dean says it's only icing, it's still the main part of it. Of course, FIRST and Battlebots are still pretty different.
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Unread 06-07-2003, 14:30
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Here we go again ... you know I really do love how ignorant some people can be.... How can you judge something only based off what you see??? You know some people can look at US FIRST and say to them selves "It looks so boring there is no point to it" and for Battle Bots "All they do is fight each other, get over it". Yes, how many of you on this board have done both??? I work for Battle Bots and build them, and I also participate in US FIRST with team 1077. Both are great learning experiences!!!! FIRST introduced me to everything and Battle Bots helped me devolved my skills even more! If it was not for working on my Battle Bot with my team, I would not have been as useful in FIRST.I owe a lot of my knowledge that I know to the time that I have spent working on FIRST and Battle Bots. They both have their own impacts on society. They are both very different and yet very alike, the fundamentals are still the same, you have to know your Math, Science, Communication and everything... Have any of you taken a minute to stop and look at the BBIQ Curriculum written by Mike Bastoni?? its amazing!! They both have their own impact in our world, just different ways of showing it...... When you do both you will get what I mean, but don't pass judgment when you have not tired something. Battle Bots is WAY more then what you just see on TV. and FIRST is a lot more then just the competitions... its those 6 weeks that pay off in the end..... Sorry if I sounded like I was going off in a tangent......


btw: Battle Bots it not gone....thats all I will say for now!!
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Unread 06-07-2003, 15:51
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In my DDP class this year, everyone saw the robot and would be like "oh, like battlebots??" When people see a robot being built, and instantly think of battlebots, then society is SERIOUSLY impacted.

Yea, then those people would go ahead and be like "you should make the wheels have spikes on them or like, flip the other robots, explode them, etc."

FIRST impacts the people that it will benefit the most overall. I think that's what is most important.
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Unread 06-07-2003, 16:12
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Quote:
Out of 250 million people in the United States, im guessing 15,000 people participate in FIRST
If you figure 25 people per team times 800 teams, you have 20,000 people directly involved in FIRST this year.

Since FIRST has been going for 12 years, (optimistically) you are probably talking 150,000 to 200,000 people who have been involved with FIRST since its inception.

If each of these people have talked to 10 people about FIRST (and I know that they have), you are looking at 2.2 million people who have either been directly affected (participant) or indirectly affected (told by a FIRST-er).

This is approaching 1% of the population after 12 years.

Within the engineering community or the higher education community, these numbers are -alot- higher. For instance, ASME publicizes FIRST at least 3 times a year through Mechanical Engineering magazine or Mechanical Engineering news (a flyer that comes with ME mag). I think you would be hard pressed to find a ME who has not heard about FIRST. Among MEs and academics, you may be talking another 1 million who have had repetitive contact with FIRST.

If you include NASA, you may get another 100,000.

Add all of this up and you are approaching 2% of the population who have either had direct or once removed, repetitive contact.

Since FIRST is doubling roughly every three years, in about 6-10 years, FIRST will have affected about 10% of the population.

FIRST has enough momentum that it is not likely to disappear in the forseeable future.

I don't know enough about Battlebots or Robot Wars to quote similar numbers.

One key question is "Does television exposure have substantial impact on society?"

I don't think that the portrayal of participants in Battlebots or Robot Wars enhances the world of engineering that much. The television portrayal of the participants is more as drivers or builders than it is as engineers.

In that respect, the television impact of BB is similar to the television impact of Nascar. It will inspire some people to pursue engineering, but not alot.

The main impact of BB is similar to FIRST, which is the "grass roots" participant impact. The numbers and outcomes are probably similar to FIRST's and complement FIRST (and vice versa).

As far as television inspiring people to pursue engineering, I suspect that Star Trek has had a greater impact than any of the Robot Sports ever will (unless they refocus on the engineers in the pits and during build).
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Unread 06-07-2003, 18:05
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Quote:
I don't know enough about Battlebots or Robot Wars to quote similar numbers.
2000 real robots that has competed in any type of robot combat at one time or another. That number also I would suspect is pretty outdated since the webmaster in charge of the database said he has not had time to update it. Over 20 events just in the United States.
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As far as television inspiring people to pursue engineering, I suspect that Star Trek has had a greater impact than any of the Robot Sports ever will (unless they refocus on the engineers in the pits and during build).
Meh your not looking hard enough. Nuts and Volts has been including some articles on battlebots in the past few monthes. Robot Rivals features two Battlebot builders also. A technical magazine is coming out maybe.
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Unread 06-07-2003, 18:13
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Since its inception, FIRST has allowed hundreds of thousands of students to directly participate in engineering.

Since its inception, Battlebots has allowed millions of students to watch engineering.

There are advantages and disadvantages to both. Battlebots can get people interested, FIRST gets them involved. There's a need for both.

How're we measuring impact? Is it the impact of seeing the robots and thinking, "hey, cool," or is the impact that has students going off to college to become practicing engineers?

There are many levels of impact and I don't know that it'd be fair to say that one or the other has been more succesful. Though, with that said, I do believe that FIRST offers more opportunity and challenge.
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Unread 06-07-2003, 18:26
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Well you guys also have to take into consideration that one competition was meant to support and foster engineering and the other competition was just for fun. What else would expect from a bunch of adult geeks to do for fun?
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Unread 06-07-2003, 20:04
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I think that Battlebots actually impacts society more, b/c people see it more. I think that if we can get more people to get interested in the competieve nature of FIRST and not the demolistic (that's probably not a word) nature of Battlebots, then we will be on the right side of the fence.
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Unread 06-07-2003, 20:20
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Originally posted by Andrew
Since FIRST has been going for 12 years, (optimistically) you are probably talking 150,000 to 200,000 people who have been involved with FIRST since its inception.
Thats a bit over optimistic...FIRST didnt start having larger growth till 2000 on. They didnt break 200 teams until 1998.


Quote:
If each of these people have talked to 10 people about FIRST (and I know that they have), you are looking at 2.2 million people who have either been directly affected (participant) or indirectly affected (told by a FIRST-er).
They might have been mentioned, but it doesn't mean they know anything else about it or remember anything, and even if your number was accurate that is still under 1%, which means basically nothing.



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If you include NASA, you may get another 100,000.
I spoke to NASA people in Texas, and quite a bit of the ones I spoke to a Johnson Space Center had no idea what I was talking about.

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FIRST has enough momentum that it is not likely to disappear in the foreseeable future.
It won't dissapear, but at the current rate it isn't going to make much of an impact either.

Quote:
One key question is "Does television exposure have substantial impact on society?"
Absolutely. Unfortunately, a lot of America revolves around television. Quite a few products that people purchase are through TV advertisements during TV shows, sporting events, or other things.

Last edited by D.J. Fluck : 07-07-2003 at 09:10.
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Unread 06-07-2003, 23:25
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Thumbs up BattleBots

I have participated in US FIRST since 1997 and am the Education Director for BattleBots IQ. I think that people's opinions are sometimes based on lack of information and for the record, I think BOTH BattleBots IQ and FIRST have a lot to offer students. They are two different kinds of engineering exercises that are based on real world experiences.
BattleBots IQ could be compared to the NASA engineers who designed and built the Mars Rovers. They have a multitude of choices to design and build their machines. They have to do a lot of research to find the right components to put into their machines. BattleBots IQ builders have to do the same kind of research. (A rule of BattleBots IQ is that the students have to design and build their robots, they may have mentors but the main work has to be done by the students)
FIRST can be compared to the Apollo 13 situation. They had only a limited amount of materials to work with to find a solution. given their limited options they had to find answers in a short amount of time and with only what they had on board. Both challenges are exciting and rewarding.

Two different kinds of challenges, two ways of experiencing engineering. Both BattleBots IQ and FIRST challenge young people to design and create machines to play a game. Like ice cream flavors high school robotics depends on personal likes and dislikes. Both BattleBots IQ and FIRST empower students, encourage them to reach beyond what they think they can do and also inspire them to move ahead to become our nations future leaders.

Teachers who have BattleBots IQ classes in their schools have reported that they have the highest attendance rates in their schools! The curriculum deals not only with how to build robots but also SCANS skills ( the skills students will need to become productive adults), safety - a lot of attention and integrity goes into that one! as well as communication skills and budgeting.

A final word, BattleBots IQ has a task oriented Table Top Competition that is not fighting robots. There are many ways to get the attention of kids and get them excited about math, science and engineering - BattleBots and FIRST are doing a great job!

Good luck to all students who are choosing to participate in either or both of these competitions!
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Unread 16-07-2003, 12:00
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I don't think BattleBots has had any impact at all. People talk about battlebots like it's a hockey game, or a football game. "did you see that one team? they really beat the $@#$@#$@#$@# out of the other one"

when people talk about FIRST, it's alot more than just that. they talk about the robots, they talk about the alliances, they talk about the teams behind it. I can imagine people being passionate about battlebots, but it's hard to attach yourself to something that's gonna get blown up next match. in FIRST you have something to relate to, because (hopefully) your robot doesn't catch fire and you get it back when you're done. you have entire teams, hell, the entire school, rooting for 4 kids down on the field, as opposed to a bunch of people on TV going "oooooh... that's GOTTA hurt."

i think it's the intent. FIRST actually wants to change society. battlebots just caters to what people want. death and destruction.
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Unread 16-07-2003, 12:42
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Quote:
Originally posted by AlbertW
I don't think BattleBots has had any impact at all. People talk about battlebots like it's a hockey game, or a football game. "did you see that one team? they really beat the $@#$@#$@#$@# out of the other one"


I agree with what you said to some extent, people in general, have that view. Those aren't really the people that matter though, in that group of sports addicts there are those people who see it and think "Wow, that was great strategy using an extension for your lifting arm to raise his skirt into his KE weapon.", atleast that's how I think. Then there are also those young kids interested in robotics who have much easier access to it through a television and can be inspired by watching it. I went to the Miami Museum of Science yesterday to drop some stuff off for an exhibit they have now and I dropped by to view their Battlebots exhibit which had some team Loki robots at it. There was a little kid viewing the exhibit and he turned to me and said "Don't these robots look familiar? They're the ones from TV!". You can't argue the impact that battlebots has had on society. Both FIRST and Battlebots have had a great impact on society. I think that both programs supplement themselves. What I really do hate though is the bias view on battlebots by those who wont even give it a chance. Not everything is the way it's perceived on television - you all should know this by now. Experience something first hand and then please by all means talk about it, but until then, keep your bias views to yourself

Quote:
when people talk about FIRST, it's alot more than just that. they talk about the robots, they talk about the alliances, they talk about the teams behind it. I can imagine people being passionate about battlebots, but it's hard to attach yourself to something that's gonna get blown up next match. in FIRST you have something to relate to, because (hopefully) your robot doesn't catch fire and you get it back when you're done. you have entire teams, hell, the entire school, rooting for 4 kids down on the field, as opposed to a bunch of people on TV going "oooooh... that's GOTTA hurt."
It's funny you say that, because it only perpetuates the fact that you haven't experienced Battlebots at all. If you have ever gone to any of the competitions you would know, there is a feeling of a community - just like there is at the FIRST pits. Robots dont come home in pieces, they may have huge dents in them, but beyond that the damage usually isn't that bad. The times that the damage is that bad, the other team asks to be finished off. The difference between the two competitions is that, Battlebots is a single elimination competition. You get beat, you have six months to fix and prepare your robot for the next competition. You don't have to make a new one every year. That's not the case in battlebots. If you want to talk about the competition aspect, sure. Lets do that - you have a team cheering for their team on a field. The same goes with battlebots, the viewers ARE the builders, cheering on their robots and everyone else's robot.

Quote:
i think it's the intent. FIRST actually wants to change society. battlebots just caters to what people want. death and destruction.
Battlebots caters to those people who are too old to compete in FIRST and still want to compete in some robotic event. It also caters to those people who can't afford a $5000 registration fee to build a robot that will only compete in one event for one year. There are many people who see Battlebots as their place to test their engineering abilities in a competition. In addition, some battlebot builders and former FIRST competitors helped write the IQ curriculum and have also started summer camps to increase the interest in robotics. That's all that matters, isn't it? Getting young minds inspired so that they one day become engineers and help to improve our society. It doesn't matter how it happens - I could care less. They could be inspired by watching NASCAR races on TV, the point is they were inspired and because of that decided to choose engineering as their field of study. I think that both FIRST and Battlebots are doing a great job of that.
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Unread 16-07-2003, 13:54
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This is easy... More people are interested in Battlebots but that is not the point in this thread... To me FIRST easily has a greater impact on society...
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