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#1
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Re: On Game Design
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Last edited by Adam Y. : 29-04-2004 at 14:41. |
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#2
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Re: On Game Design
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And while you may think that it's impossible to build a robot for that price, that number is far higher than the amount we were allowed to spend at Small Parts back in 1998 and 1999 (and probably years prior to that). And yes, you had to purchase almost all your materials from Small Parts (including aluminum, etc.; there was a small list of things you could purchase outside of Small Parts). Matt |
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#3
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Re: On Game Design
Don't forget the Human element. The great thing about this year was that a human was the one making the points. Our robot had massive problems (which were finally fixed LAST NIGHT) with the drive train and was never able to run the entire UCF regional. However, the team was able to recruit a high scoring human shooter, and made what little points we started with, and the points our alliance partners generously let us have. With some luck, a good shooter, and no robot, we finished in 21st out of 41 teams. Surprisingly, if our goal was capped, the enemy alliance goal is capped, our alliance hangs one robot, and the enemy alliance hangs a robot...the game comes down to whichever team scored the most 5 point balls. Rookie teams have just as good of chance recruiting a human player as any other highschool.
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#4
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Re: On Game Design
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) has a better chance of getting more points |
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#5
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Re: On Game Design
I think that the kit allows for everyone....rookie or not....to be able to build some sort of a robot to compete. Simply use the 4x2 alluminum to build your base.....stick the drill motors on....do the electronics...and there you've got a robot that can decently compete in the game.
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#6
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Re: On Game Design
The point is, FIRST looks to inspire people... the game is ... whatever.. We can either choose to accept it as a challenge and do something about it or .... ,. Frankly, It is my first year, I don't know too much of the game except for stack attack and FIRST frenzy. From what I see, it just looks like these are moderate level games, and the success level(building a working robot) is huge in rookie and veteran teams.
However, its not only the game. There is recognition for lots of other stuff like animation, websites, helping other teams etc. If for some reason your robots are not that good, try doing other stuff. Maybe that would make you feel better. FIRST is a huge world ![]() |
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#7
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Re: On Game Design
The game and the rules should not limit my or anyone else's creativity in the design of complex systems or any other aspect of building a robot or the strategy of how to play the game.
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#8
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Re: On Game Design
O.K. I'm ready to chime in. I am going to address one aspect of Matt's original post: Additional parts restriction and money restriction. Many of you that know me or have had this conversation with me already know where I am going, but here I go again.
At first glance, one would think that restricting additional parts would level the playing field. On the contray, the more restriction placed on the additional parts; the more advantage the "big money" teams have. The ThunderChickens are one of those "big money" teams. If the restriction went to $700, or even $500 our machine would look the same. Why? We can make everything we currently buy. We buy a $25 gear today and I could have it made on a wire EDM for free (cost of the steel ~$2) by our sponsor. We currently chose not to do this, but we could. With no restriction, the small team could buy the same $25 gear. If the restriction existed, the small team would have to pay anywhere between $50 to $250 to have it made if they could find a place at all. The tighter the restriction, the more advantage my team has. Another huge downfall of the restriction is the need for us to get T.V. exposure. What? How does the additional part restrictions have anything to do with T.V. exposure? The robots have to look good if we want to be on T.V. If they look like something we built in our garage, then we will have a harder time getting exposure. Look at the moster trucks .. beautiful artwork and design that gets destroyed at each competition ... the looks do nothing for the function but it is important for the exposure. Same goes for NASCAR or Drag Racing, or Formula 1. Looks matter and restriction on parts will kill any chance we have of getting real T.V. exposure. Either way, we will play with whatever rules we are given because the ThunderChickens will be inspired either way. -Paul |
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#9
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Re: On Game Design
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I do believe Matt's point though, was this- If other teams are capable of producing equally, if not more capable robots for much less money, why do teams have to spend the full $3000? Personally, I like the robots that look like they came out of a garage better than the polished up show robots. Maybe as Matt's info says, I've "been in FIRST too long", but I like seeing the ins and outs of a robot's systems. A machine will look good if it's well built, and throwing more money at a machine won't make it any better. What makes a machine great is it's fundadmental design and inherent functionality, not how much money is spent on it. To expand on that idea further, FIRST is about inspiring kids about science and technology, and what better way to get kids thinking than by presenting a problem. I'd rather students think of a creative and innovative method of coping with a mechanical issue with given resources, rather than say "well, we could always just buy this." My team has always been on a limited budget, so we're forced to find creative ways around what otherwise would end up as an expense, and I wouldn't trade anything in the world for that experience. As far as TV exposure, I'd almost fear that for FIRST at this point. FIRST is no monster truck rally, or racing event, or sports game, and shares none of the values each of them entail. The only way robotics will become interesting to TV audiences is if they become all out battlebots. I think FIRST is trying to change America on a culteral level by planting the seeds of gracious professionalism in the youth of the nation, and hope it grows and flowers once those students grow up and become the leaders of the future. Personally, I'd rather not see FIRST sacrifice it's roots of inspiration to pander to the TV crowd, even if the intentions are to inspire the TV crowd. I feel too much of what FIRST means would be lost in the process. |
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#10
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Re: On Game Design
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If we could have a television network broadcast the final matches from Einstein we would be golden. |
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#11
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Re: On Game Design
Marc P.,
What exactly do you disagre with? If the limit was $500, could you build the same robot you did with $1,200? All I am saying is that a "big money" team probably could and a low budget team probably couldn't. Is this what you disagree with? As to the quality of a product: You say that throwing more money at a design will not make it better. Many times this is just not true. Throwing money at a design is one of the easiest ways to make something more functional. I am actually in that situation right now with a development we are working on. The trick in many engineering applications is to make it good enough for the task at hand at the lowest cost. We will just agree to disagree about your comment on battlebots. The reason Comedy Central pulled the plug is that it was not interesting enough to capture the audiences' attention for 3 years in a row (same old, same old). We need to get the average Joe T.V. watcher to keep the channel on our competition for 10 minutes. If we can do that, then he will get interested and that will start an explosion of reaching more and more students outside of the current FIRST community. The key to those 10 minutes is flair. We need more flair. As to your point about finding creative ways to solve problems. I agree with you, but I argue that even if the limits were opened up all the way (this year was very close) you can't just go out and buy any old component off the shelf. There is one MAJOR limiting factor we must deal with that rules almost every decision we make ... 130lb maximum. That limit forces us to make a lot more creative decisions than chsing between EDM gears vs. bought gears. I really don't like re-inventing the wheel, so just let me buy my gears (and bearings and sprockets, etc.) I know, let's play a fun (and maybe enlightening for all) game. Let's think of a restriction we would like to put on the game to level the playing field and see how it affects different teams. Since I don't like any restriction, I won't go first. -Paul P.S. - I have been wating for this debate to resurface for a while now, because there are many long time FIRSTers that disagree on this subject. |
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#12
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Re: On Game Design
To spend or not to spend? Those that can do and those that can't don't. Has this impacted FIRST to this point? I must admit that I am a relative rookie in FIRST but I have seen a lot of teams and matches in my 3 short years. As a mentor and announcer I have seen from 2 sides (I'm not sure how many sides there are) the pros and cons of money. When building there never seems to be enough. When I look at some teams I am jealous. When some teams look at us they are jealous (not cause I'm on the team). We are a mid finance team. I think of what could we do if we had more cash. Then I think, probably wish I had more cash.
Inspiration comes on different levels and in different forms. This year I was inspired to do more fund raising because we wanted to increase the awareness of our team. We were inspired by winning the West Michigan Regional last year. We were inspired by Wildstang. We were inspired by FIRST !!! I don't believe in fixing something that's not broke. I like to see teams with lots of money building a nice machine. I like to see rookie teams glow as their robot leaves the starting block and pushes home their first ball. I love to see a team with no robot at Championship work with other teams to build a basic bot to compete. I love to see students open their eyes and see a whole new world. Would I change anything ? Yes, but that is not to be discussed here. I would also like to see a game a bit more exciting than this year. Not that it didn't end up good it's just that it took all Friday to get there. I would like to continue seeing more technology developed. As you know this also takes money. If teams can find sponsers and have the money then let them spend. We already have limits. Don't change them just monitor how teams are beating the system and make them accountable. That is a big order I know and how do you accomplish it, I'm not sure but if FIRST wants some suggestions I would love to help. I don't believe in superteams, I believe in small teams stretching to accomplish great feats. Many small subgroups have a better chance of solving a problem than one large group. If I have offended any one I appologize but I am not pointing any fingers. These are just my thoughts and ideas. Paul - Throwing money at a problem does not always work. Take the New York Rangers, Please. Last edited by Steve W : 29-04-2004 at 19:41. |
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#13
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In fact it seems kind of against the real world way of doing things to say to the students, "hey we need this sprocket that you can buy off the shelf for $19 but instead we are going to make the exact same thing for $70??" |
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#14
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Re: On Game Design
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)I disagree with your example of the gear- if you can get your sponsor to manufacture it rather than purchasing it. Section 5.3.2.2 of The Robot part of the manual states: Quote:
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#15
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Re: On Game Design
I've been reading the posts regarding spending limits and I see 2 separate arguments. The first is about the cost placed on the teams to buy their parts from their sources. The second is the cost to sponsors for use of machining facilities.
In one scenario, if the cost allowed per robot and materials rules remains around where it is now, many parts can be bought from suppliers by the teams. These parts bought by teams are then charged to the cost allowed per robot and assuming they are within the materials limits, don't cost the sponsor any more additional money. Sponsors don't lose any machine time in creation of those parts and can more easily help with other aspects of the robot. In the second scenario, if the materials rules and cost rules tighten, and assuming Section 5.3.2.2 still is the same, then teams will be limited by their outside selection and will be forced into custom designing parts that can be readily available off the shelf. Now the teams are responsible for buying the raw material and convincing one of their sponsors to place a decent amount of money into allowing the team to access and use their shop. The cost is now placed on the sponsors has increased significantly (in most cases) because the sponsor is now also paying for additional time on machines, employees to help the teams, and is not making any money with those machines while robot parts are created. Plus that sponsor will be asked to help with the things it has provided in years past! Going back to the way it was is a huge advantage to the well funded teams. Plus there are many areas of this and other countries where manufacturing capabilities are very limited. All sponsors (large and small) are better off having the teams have access to COTS (Commercial Off The Shelf) Parts than to custom design and manufacture everything. I have no problem with reasonable material or cost limitations, and as Paul said, we are always limited by that nagging 130 lb weight thing. We want to have this competition attract sponsoring companies to build corporate-school relations. The only way to do that is to make the sponsor's time and money worthwhile. Steve |
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