Go to Post You wrote a PID control loop for your coach? Whoa. - meatmanek [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
View Poll Results: Is Battlebots I.Q. a threat to FIRST?
Nope, true quality and decency will show through, XFL 77 34.53%
Although Battlebots will climb up, they won't be that big, think UPN vs. NBC, ABC, or CBS 56 25.11%
They will be on the same level, like American and National baseball leagues 39 17.49%
Battelbots IQ is a better concept and will triumph over FIRST 12 5.38%
Don't Care 39 17.49%
Voters: 223. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 14 votes, 4.86 average. Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 04-10-2005, 22:43
CJO's Avatar
CJO CJO is offline
Emeritus Pain in the $@#$@#$@#
AKA: Christopher J. O'Connell
None #1097 (Site 3 Engineering)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Latrobe (over the rainbow), CA
Posts: 217
CJO will become famous soon enoughCJO will become famous soon enough
Re: Battlebots I.Q.- A serious threat to FIRST or a half thought up cheep copy?

In regards to Doug's post,

Another way in which FIRST isolates itself is by the strick isolation of the ability to run competitions. As many of you know, most scrimmages are held using hand built toggles, because they refuse to give pin-out information for the RC which would allow competitions to take place outside of FIRST. Thus the IFI RC controller is "just" another robot controller, instead of a system which people can use for competition
__________________
Team 1097 -- Site 3 Engineering
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
2003 Sacramento Rookie All Star
2003 Silicon Valley Rookie All Star
2004 Sacramento Engineering Inspiration Award
2004 Sacramento Visualization Award
2004 Outstanding Volunteer Award (G. Glasser)
2004 Silicon Valley Sportsmanship Award
2004 National Visualization Runner Up
2004 Cal Games Finalist
2005 Sacramento Sportsmanship Award
2005 Sacramento #1 seed
2005 Sacramento Finalist

2005 Silicon Valley Sportsmanship Award
2005 Silicon Valley #1 Seed
2005 Silicon Valley Finalist

Reply With Quote
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-10-2005, 01:13
Doug G's Avatar
Doug G Doug G is offline
Coach / Teacher
FRC #0701 (Robovikes)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Fairfield, CA
Posts: 880
Doug G has a reputation beyond reputeDoug G has a reputation beyond reputeDoug G has a reputation beyond reputeDoug G has a reputation beyond reputeDoug G has a reputation beyond reputeDoug G has a reputation beyond reputeDoug G has a reputation beyond reputeDoug G has a reputation beyond reputeDoug G has a reputation beyond reputeDoug G has a reputation beyond reputeDoug G has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Battlebots I.Q.- A serious threat to FIRST or a half thought up cheep copy?

Actually I think the IFI system is great, but why do we need bags of springs, wheelchair wheels, and at least 1/2 of the other stuff in the kit. I know, someone will say it was donated and such, I say forget the whole kit except the control system and it's associate electronics. Looking around at the competition last year, most teams didn't even use the kit frame, I know we didn't. The only team it benefited were the first or second year rookies. Why not let us figure what motors are best - put a limit on them or their rated wattage or something - I'd just like to see the whole enchilada changed a bit to encourage growth and reduced cost. I'm really considering other options if funding doesn't come through this year - the BBIQ, MATE program, BotBall, Rocket Challenge, etc... There now seems like a lot of other programs to inspire students to pursue science and engineering and are a lot cheaper. I grant you, nothing beats the experience of FIRST, but there ARE other options that can fulfill the same mission. Hence the point of this thread.
__________________
Work Hard, Have Fun, Make a Difference!

Reply With Quote
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-10-2005, 05:32
JVGazeley JVGazeley is offline
Don't Walk... Do the Robot
AKA: Jason Clift-Jones
FRC #0759 (Systemetric)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Swansea, Wales, United Kingdom
Posts: 164
JVGazeley is a jewel in the roughJVGazeley is a jewel in the roughJVGazeley is a jewel in the rough
Send a message via AIM to JVGazeley Send a message via Yahoo to JVGazeley
Re: Battlebots I.Q.- A serious threat to FIRST or a half thought up cheep copy?

They tried Battlebots here but it never got near to our own Robot Wars series, which ran for 7 seasons (although nothings been heard of it since 2003).

I cannot see either of the 2 FRC teams from the UK jumping ship to a Battlebots spin off...

I suppose it's like FIRST and Techno Games (UK equivelant of Battlebots I.Q. from what I can gather, albeit less violent). Techno Games was popular here, but most teams were younger than FIRST teams from what I'm aware of...
__________________
FRC: Team 759 Systemetric; Team Scrutineer '05 & '06, Safety Captain '06.
FLL: Cambridge (UK) Regional Helper '04 & '05, Bottisham Barnacles; Mentor '05

Last edited by JVGazeley : 05-10-2005 at 05:35.
Reply With Quote
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-10-2005, 06:00
Denman's Avatar
Denman Denman is offline
Tie Wrap-Not Cable Tie or Zip tie
AKA: Stephen Denman
FRC #0759 (Systemetric)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Cambridge UK
Posts: 817
Denman has much to be proud ofDenman has much to be proud ofDenman has much to be proud ofDenman has much to be proud ofDenman has much to be proud ofDenman has much to be proud ofDenman has much to be proud ofDenman has much to be proud ofDenman has much to be proud of
Send a message via ICQ to Denman Send a message via AIM to Denman Send a message via MSN to Denman Send a message via Yahoo to Denman
Re: Battlebots I.Q.- A serious threat to FIRST or a half thought up cheep copy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JVGazeley

I suppose it's like FIRST and Techno Games (UK equivelant of Battlebots I.Q. from what I can gather, albeit less violent). Techno Games was popular here, but most teams were younger than FIRST teams from what I'm aware of...
Yes, techno games was about making robots to do athletic skills, such as rope climbing, shot put, even relay racing
__________________
I am an ex-member of team 759.
759: regional winners with 522 and 233 NYC (2004)


FIRSTWiki.org - Contribute, learn, inspire.

"Teach the way of the GP and the way of the GP shall teach you" - Me
Reply With Quote
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-10-2005, 10:44
Alan Anderson's Avatar
Alan Anderson Alan Anderson is offline
Software Architect
FRC #0045 (TechnoKats)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Kokomo, Indiana
Posts: 9,113
Alan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Battlebots I.Q.- A serious threat to FIRST or a half thought up cheep copy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug G
...Looking around at the competition last year, most teams didn't even use the kit frame, I know we didn't. The only team it benefited were the first or second year rookies....
The TechnoKats used the kit chassis (and gearboxes) to make a quick software development drivebase at the beginning of the build season. It directly benefited us, a 14-year veteran team. We also indirectly benefit from those rookie teams having well-built and working drivebases. It helps raise the level of performance across the board, making for a better competitive environment.

I think having a consistent set of basic building blocks is one of the important differences between FIRST and something like BattleBots. Sure, most experienced teams can do well without having things handed to them in a box, but that fosters elitism and makes it harder for newcomers.
Reply With Quote
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-10-2005, 12:09
ChrisH's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
ChrisH ChrisH is offline
Generally Useless
FRC #0330 (Beach 'Bots)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1998
Location: Hermosa Beach, CA
Posts: 1,230
ChrisH has a reputation beyond reputeChrisH has a reputation beyond reputeChrisH has a reputation beyond reputeChrisH has a reputation beyond reputeChrisH has a reputation beyond reputeChrisH has a reputation beyond reputeChrisH has a reputation beyond reputeChrisH has a reputation beyond reputeChrisH has a reputation beyond reputeChrisH has a reputation beyond reputeChrisH has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Battlebots I.Q.- A serious threat to FIRST or a half thought up cheep copy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Anderson
The TechnoKats used the kit chassis (and gearboxes) to make a quick software development drivebase at the beginning of the build season. It directly benefited us, a 14-year veteran team. We also indirectly benefit from those rookie teams having well-built and working drivebases. It helps raise the level of performance across the board, making for a better competitive environment.

I think having a consistent set of basic building blocks is one of the important differences between FIRST and something like BattleBots. Sure, most experienced teams can do well without having things handed to them in a box, but that fosters elitism and makes it harder for newcomers.
The BeachBots used our KitBot chassis to test out a Mechanum drive. It was fun to drive but had trouble holding ground so we dropped it. In the absence of the kit chassis we would have had to make a decision much earlier as to which drive we would use. Due to fabrication difficulties, we didn't make the final decision until Week 5 of build. This would not have been possible and we wouldn't have even attempted the Mechanum drive without KitBot.

Our drivetrain used the stock gearbox and sprockets. We only changed the wheel and added a couple of sets of sprockets for six wheel drive. For the game it was the right thing to do. Next year will probably be different.
__________________
Christopher H Husmann, PE

"Who is John Galt?"
Reply With Quote
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-10-2005, 20:37
patTeam241 patTeam241 is offline
College Student
AKA: Pat Cleary
no team
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 54
patTeam241 will become famous soon enoughpatTeam241 will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to patTeam241
Re: Battlebots I.Q.- A serious threat to FIRST or a half thought up cheep copy?

I have a couple thoughts about the BBIQ/FIRST discussion, but first a quick note. I participated on my high school's FIRST team for four years, and will someday get involved again, so I am somewhat biased towards FIRST. However, I can see strengths in both.

However, FIRST has one thing that BBIQ doesn't seem to offer. BBIQ seems to be nothing more than an extension of an engineering class where the goal is to build a robot. FIRST's goal is different. Every year Dean speaks of how the goal of FIRST isn't to build a robot, but instead to learn teamwork, leadership, business and engineering skills. While the robot and competition are a major focus, FIRST also recognizes the other aspects. The best example is in the true 'champion'. From everything I've read, the 'champion' of BBIQ is the team that does the best. The top prize in FIRST is for something different. The Chairmans Award goes to the team that contributes the most, in the local community, to FIRST, and to other teams. They also give awards for other things, teams with great websites, great animations, and great spirits. While these teams may not have great engineering skills (although they may) they have taken the opportunity to accel at other skills.

My second point is on the biggest complaint heard of FIRST, it's cost. Yes, $6000 to register, and more to build a robot is a challenge, however, that's part of what FIRST is. In the real world, most companies fail in their first year. Money is always a challenge, and FIRST emphasizes that wether intentional or not. It inspires a team to work hard on the business side of the challenge. With regards to BBIQ, the situation doesn't seem to be much different. Many posters report bills of $10,000+, although this may have changed as more competions seem to have popped up.

Just my 2 cents.

Pat
Reply With Quote
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 08-10-2005, 01:45
Doug G's Avatar
Doug G Doug G is offline
Coach / Teacher
FRC #0701 (Robovikes)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Fairfield, CA
Posts: 880
Doug G has a reputation beyond reputeDoug G has a reputation beyond reputeDoug G has a reputation beyond reputeDoug G has a reputation beyond reputeDoug G has a reputation beyond reputeDoug G has a reputation beyond reputeDoug G has a reputation beyond reputeDoug G has a reputation beyond reputeDoug G has a reputation beyond reputeDoug G has a reputation beyond reputeDoug G has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Battlebots I.Q.- A serious threat to FIRST or a half thought up cheep copy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by patTeam241
My second point is on the biggest complaint heard of FIRST, it's cost. Yes, $6000 to register, and more to build a robot is a challenge, however, that's part of what FIRST is. In the real world, most companies fail in their first year. Money is always a challenge, and FIRST emphasizes that wether intentional or not. It inspires a team to work hard on the business side of the challenge. With regards to BBIQ, the situation doesn't seem to be much different. Many posters report bills of $10,000+, although this may have changed as more competions seem to have popped up.

Just my 2 cents.

Pat
Pat, the cost of FIRST is definitely the biggest complaint I hear all the time as well - and yes it does challenge teams to be have sound business structure. But getting new teams started, is tough, since they don't realize what FIRST is all about until you participate in it. We've made presentations to schools and they really like what we show them, but they just can't get past the initial cost. So in the end, it'll keep FIRST out of those schools that lack resources (inner city, low socioeconomics, etc..) so the great technology divide will continue to grow.

The one thing that really seemed to make a difference to many teams were the NASA grants - they're usually for 2 years (if applied for each year). Once a team were in FIRST for a couple of years, then they got it - they realize how to build it up like a business venture. That's what helped us our first few years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Anderson
The TechnoKats used the kit chassis (and gearboxes) to make a quick software development drivebase at the beginning of the build season. It directly benefited us, a 14-year veteran team. We also indirectly benefit from those rookie teams having well-built and working drivebases. It helps raise the level of performance across the board, making for a better competitive environment.

I think having a consistent set of basic building blocks is one of the important differences between FIRST and something like BattleBots. Sure, most experienced teams can do well without having things handed to them in a box, but that fosters elitism and makes it harder for newcomers.
We too used the kit chassis for prototyping - but not on real bot. I guess what I'm sying is it would be nice for FIRST to find a way to get the entry cost down so that more teams would start up. Three years ago FIRST tried a slightly different kit for Rookie teams and veteran teams. I believe that veteran teams didn't receive a pump and battery charger whereas new teams and 2nd year teams did. Perhaps they could something similar to that?

Maybe a question that could be asked is, would veteran teams be willing to receive less kit parts than rookie teams if it means lower the entry fees? Or would veteran teams be willing to subsidize part of the cost of rookie teams (assuming it's a perfect world and nobody abuses this)? Rookie teams cost = $4000, Veteran Teams = $6500?

I'm just throwing out ideas that probably have been discussed to death elsewhere in the forums.
__________________
Work Hard, Have Fun, Make a Difference!


Last edited by Doug G : 08-10-2005 at 01:58.
Reply With Quote
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 08-10-2005, 11:32
patTeam241 patTeam241 is offline
College Student
AKA: Pat Cleary
no team
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 54
patTeam241 will become famous soon enoughpatTeam241 will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to patTeam241
Re: Battlebots I.Q.- A serious threat to FIRST or a half thought up cheep copy?

First, sorry I know this isn't what the forum started about, but it gave me an idea.

I like the idea that the older team help subsidize new teams, but I had another idea of my own. How many teams have signifigant amounts of cash left over at the start of the season? I know my team never did, but I would guess some teams probably do. What if any team that could afford it was asked to donate $500, $1000, or whatever they could to a Rookie Fund, which would then be disbursed between rookie teams who need it. This seems like a great form of gp.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:59.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi