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Unread 23-06-2002, 22:24
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Re: my little analogy

Posted by Chris, Coach on team #308, Walled Lake Monster, from Walled Lake Schools and TRW Automotive Electronics.

Posted on 4/5/99 11:39 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: my little analogy posted by Daniel on 4/5/99 8:54 AM MST:



I know a lot of people that feel the way you do, that going to multiple regionals is something to shoot for. But that is what my analogy was about. In the racing series, holding virtually unlimited practice sessions was viewed as something to shoot for by all teams. What the analogy pointed out is that there will be many teams that will NEVER be able to go to multiple regionals (or do unlimited practice as in the analogy). These teams become less competitive every year. My fear is that these teams sponsors will become embarassed by their teams performance and will withdraw the sponsorship. As I stated, many teams have already dropped out. With the exception of Baxter and Lakeland, all of the dropouts that I noticed have been teams that weren't very competitive.

I completely agree that regionals are beneficial. Therein lies my reasoning for capping it. If Delphi would have had their first regional at the Great Lakes, they would have stunk (sorry guys) like we stunk. Instead, they came in with a refined robot and kicked our butts. I would like to see all robots go in to the competition with the same six weeks of work, instead of six weeks plus three regionals worth of work. Delphi would have done all of their learning in Ypsi instead of Chicago. Their learning experience would not be diminished. Teams learn the most about their robot after the first competition they attend. After this, it's mostly small refinements and driving practice, which I don't believe anyone learns much from. Especially when you consider the cost, the amount of learning vs. the cost is really bad for any regional after the first (when I say learning I mean math and science learning. A team learns a lot about the competition with each regional, but this isn't the goal of FIRST).

Fundraising isn't a good solution for a lot of teams. There are something like 40 teams in this area. There is only so much fundraising you can do with that many teams. You end up going to places and they say, 'we already gave to another team'. Currently there aren't many teams from small communities like where I grew up. Where I grew up a team couldn't fundraise anywhere near enough to support a team let alone multiple regionals. Part of the reason I'm interested in capping costs is so more small community teams can be started. I would like students at my former high school to have the opportunity of having a FIRST team.

As always, it all comes down to money and being competitive. No matter what FIRST preaches, many sponsors do this competition for its advertising value (like in racing). The company gets PR from the local press, word of mouth, the school and school board, and within the other teams of the competition. If teams start doing poorly, many people think that reflects on the quality of engineers at that company. A company might get embarrassed and pull the funding because the advertising value isn't good. This is not the ideals of FIRST, but the reality. I know of certain teams that must perform above a certain level to retain funding from the company. Another thing to think about is that many companies can't justify supporting a FIRST team when they're laying off employees. If the cost of FIRST were less, a better argument could be made for keeping the team.

As far as being a lost cause, I completely disagree. An uphill climb? Definitely. FIRST is not going to limit regionals on their own. They get $4000 per team at each regional plus merchandise sales (that's $240,000 plus sales at the Great Lakes Regional alone). It's in their best interest to have every team attend every regional if possible. FIRST has selfish interests (at this time) in having teams attend multiple regionals.

How is it ever going to change? Enough people voicing their opinion about it. I know that a lot of people are adamantly against this right now (as there were in the racing series in my analogy). Teams want a competitive advantage, people like to travel, etc. But I'm sure a lot of people are for limiting regionals. I think since I've been flamed so hard for this opinion in the past, most people that share my view aren't stepping up. But that's okay, I'll continue to be the designated whipping post for this cause. As I said, this wasn't my idea, it took someone else to make me think of it. I just believe in it.



: Chris,
: I believe I can speak from the perspective of those 'small money teams' you mentioned. My team has, in it's three year history, only gone to a regional once. The NASA Ames regional this year was a godsend. From that experience, I can finally see why people feel it to be so vital to attend these smaller competitions. We started out with practically just a pretty, 4 foot tall paperweight. By the time the regional was through, we had what the judges had tagged 'The Enforcer'. The Regional was extremely beneficial to my team. I look at these wealthy teams (delphi, wildstang, etc.) and I see a goal, not a threat. It gives us something to work towards, because one day, I want to be able to have a team that CAN go to multiple regionals like Delphi or Wildstang. It just takes some doing. For our team, we try to have our students learn not only about building robots, but about fundraising. We have countless presentations to local Silicon Valley businesses.

: And we never give in. No matter how much money we get, there's always more to use it on. Going to multiple regionals is simply another landmark, something to shoot for. And you know what? We may be small money now, but each year we do better. We build on what we had before. I think it's very possible that soon, the Gunn Robotics Team will be seen at Great Lakes. The day is coming...

: Anyway, my point is that the regionals are a very beneficial experience. You can just look at how much Delphi has improved through the regionals it's went to. And do you think they weren't learning while their robot was starting to perform as well as it was originally designed to? Of course they were. I wouldn't want to keep them from that. Just think of it as a goal.

: One last thing, if you're going to look at unfairness, look at the machine shops. There's only so much you can level out after the robots have been built. Think about WHILE they're being built. A school like mine who's machines have been called 'antique' by a NASA machinist have a decided disadvantage. If you're going to talk about unfair, talk about THAT.

: My point is basically this: it's a lost cause. FIRST has done the best job it can to make this a fair competition, but it's never going to be perfect. And if you DO decide to change something to make it closer to that ideal, it shouldn't be a change that cuts any learning off...

: Make sense?

:
: -Daniel


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