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Unread 23-06-2002, 22:24
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I don't agree

Posted by Ken Patton, Engineer on team #65, The Huskie Brigade, from Pontiac Northern High School and GM Powertrain.

Posted on 4/6/99 7:10 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: Some reasons to go to more than one regional posted by Chris on 4/6/99 11:26 AM MST:



Chris-

I really hope its not the case that 'big-time' teams will scare away other teams. I always thought it was the other way around - that 'big time' teams will help to grow new teams. If teams make a big splash in their communities, more people get excited about what FIRST is all about, and more teams get going.

I think by having a good showing at regionals or nationals, there is a bigger chance that more students (especially those NOT on the teams) will be inspired to explore their interests in things technical.

I can think of many teams that got started or helped because of the efforts of 'big time' teams. How did your team initially hear about FIRST?

As to teams being discouraged by a high level of competition, I don't buy it. It doesn't stop too many lousy high school basketball teams from trying every year. In my opinion, thats because its not about 'winning.' Its about 'trying to win' and 'preparing yourself for success.' That in itself is why people will want to compete. Heck, you have Dave working on a miracle - that doesn't sound to me like someone who is going to be discouraged by good competition.

When I look up at the great FIRST teams its not all heavily funded monsters that I see (its some relative of a creature called Beattyjuice if you want to know the truth ). I think the success of teams on the playing field has more to do with the PEOPLE and IDEAS than it does with the sponsors' wallets.

I think you are placing too much emphasis on the effect of company size on team success. I agree that multiple regionals is an advantage, and that its funding that enables teams to go to multiple regionals. I wouldn't be opposed to a one regional rule. But I don't think its in the interest of FIRST until we have a thousand or so more teams. At the rate we are going, half of them will be in Michigan! ) just joshin you other states

If you want to read some of Dean Kamen's comments on this subject, I suggest you check out the link below to our website. Its a long article, but I think he drives home some points about why it is important to have 'big-time' sponsorship.

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holes in hole poking

Posted by Joe Johnson, Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 4/6/99 7:18 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: Some reasons to go to more than one regional posted by Chris on 4/6/99 11:26 AM MST:



.
.
.
: Reason #2. Everyone gets to see these well funded teams at nationals. They don't need to see them at the regionals. Teams make notes of who performed well at the regionals and make it a point to see them in action in Florida.

***
Not everyone goes to Nationals.

.
.
.
: Reason #3. A season of events would be great if the costs were controlled. Here in the Detroit area it would be great since we have around 40 teams and no one would have to travel. I would be all for that.

***
I have been involved in serious conversations with serious folks who think that it is not out or the question that Detroit could have its own regional next year. I have also heard that Grand Rapids may have another regional next year. Now your talking SEASON! Between Ypsi, Detroit, Western Michigan and Chicago, you could have a serious season of events within a 4-5 hour drive of Detroit. Let me at 'em :-)

.
.
.
: In the second part, you completely agreed with something I said earlier. The people writing the checks want to see a good result or the checks will stop being written. The 'less fortunate teams' (PC term) in the long run will do poorly and all of their sponsors will stop writing the checks. In the end you may up with only GM, Delphi, Chrysler, Motorola, and a few others left. Shouldn't we do something to keep everyone competitive? Granted, someone is going to finish last every year, but funding is hardly ever pulled due to one bad year. It's a trend of bad performances that is noticed. If the field is not level, the less funded teams will be on the bad end of the trend and will get their funding taken away.

***
Beatty Hammond! What more can I say? They have a 60 person tool and die shop and a community with a heart of gold. They beat up the big three year after year. Are you telling me that there is no such great engineers at TRW to compete with the likes of Beatty the Elder and Beatty the Younger? You know that there are. FIND THEM!

.
.
.
: It's also hard for a team to feel inspired when the cards are stacked against them. Some people start to feel discouraged. Sure, your team may feel more inspired, but at whose expense?

***
There are teams that do very well with little funding. Harrison RIT were national champs in our first year. They bragged that they spent a TOTAL of $19K on their entire FIRST effort -- including travel! Next year, Beatty won. The next year Delphi won, but a not super funded Naval Undersea Warfare Center finished second.

If you will allow me a personal digression: At one point, I was considering moving on from Delphi. Before I would leave though, I was polling my brother, sisters, and misc. relatives to see if between us, we could come up with enough dough to fund a Team Johnson. You can bet that I would not have just tossed up my hands and just said, 'We can never compete with the Delphi's & GM's!' I was planning on kicking my former team's behinds ;-) And believe me, my family couldn't come up with a 10th of the budget a typical Delphi team has. Would I have done multiple regionals? Yes, even if we had to stay at the KOA! My point is that I reject the idea that money is the only or even the major limit to competitive teams.

Joe J.



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Re: holes in holes in holes (wow, I believe that's some sort of multidimensional thing)

Posted by Chris, Coach on team #308, Walled Lake Monster, from Walled Lake Schools and TRW Automotive Electronics.

Posted on 4/7/99 6:50 AM MST


In Reply to: holes in hole poking posted by Joe Johnson on 4/6/99 7:18 PM MST:



: .
: .
: .
: : Reason #2. Everyone gets to see these well funded teams at nationals. They don't need to see them at the regionals. Teams make notes of who performed well at the regionals and make it a point to see them in action in Florida.

: ***
: Not everyone goes to Nationals.

********
I really feel for these teams, but that is another argument all together, maybe for another day. This one drains me enough as it is. I can only fight battles one at a time, in steps. However, there are usually enough good teams at each regional for the lesser teams to see.

Even if there weren't great teams to see at a regional, I would rather let the lesser teams battle it out so that they can feel like kings for while instead of feeling totally defeated by a great team. Let them have their day in the sun.

: .
: .
: .
: : Reason #3. A season of events would be great if the costs were controlled. Here in the Detroit area it would be great since we have around 40 teams and no one would have to travel. I would be all for that.

: ***
: I have been involved in serious conversations with serious folks who think that it is not out or the question that Detroit could have its own regional next year. I have also heard that Grand Rapids may have another regional next year. Now your talking SEASON! Between Ypsi, Detroit, Western Michigan and Chicago, you could have a serious season of events within a 4-5 hour drive of Detroit. Let me at 'em :-)

***********
As I said before, I'm all for this because travel is next to zero. But it is still a problem if we have all of this competition experience and the teams out west only have one regional near by.


: .
: .
: .
: : In the second part, you completely agreed with something I said earlier. The people writing the checks want to see a good result or the checks will stop being written. The 'less fortunate teams' (PC term) in the long run will do poorly and all of their sponsors will stop writing the checks. In the end you may up with only GM, Delphi, Chrysler, Motorola, and a few others left. Shouldn't we do something to keep everyone competitive? Granted, someone is going to finish last every year, but funding is hardly ever pulled due to one bad year. It's a trend of bad performances that is noticed. If the field is not level, the less funded teams will be on the bad end of the trend and will get their funding taken away.

: ***
: Beatty Hammond! What more can I say? They have a 60 person tool and die shop and a community with a heart of gold. They beat up the big three year after year. Are you telling me that there is no such great engineers at TRW to compete with the likes of Beatty the Elder and Beatty the Younger? You know that there are. FIND THEM!


**********
You can find an exception to every rule. Beatty is just that, the exception. Once again, let's talk trends, not single instances. As far as finding engineers where I work, let's say the engineers are good here, but the climate isn't. I'll leave it at that. In fact, I've been wanting to discuss this with you to get some ideas. I'll try to track you down in Florida (you have decided to go, right?)

: .
: .
: .
: : It's also hard for a team to feel inspired when the cards are stacked against them. Some people start to feel discouraged. Sure, your team may feel more inspired, but at whose expense?

: ***
: There are teams that do very well with little funding. Harrison RIT were national champs in our first year. They bragged that they spent a TOTAL of $19K on their entire FIRST effort -- including travel! Next year, Beatty won. The next year Delphi won, but a not super funded Naval Undersea Warfare Center finished second.


*********
Recall that your first year there was only one regional, so your argument fails here. In fact, I think your example proves MY point. My whole point is that small funded teams CAN win if we all had the same competition experience, as was the case in 1996. In that year teams were forced to be limited to one regional because that's all there was. I want to return to those days where a small funded team can win it all.

In 1997, Beatty won. I already stated that I believe Beatty is an exception, but even so, in 1997 there were only a few teams going to multiple regionals; the multi-regional effect was limited and it was nothing like last year and this year. Besides, they were in the finals with your team, one of the only teams that I knew of that went to multiple regionals that year. Beatty also went to more than one regional this year.

As for NUWC, they did great, but all I have to say is 'Villanova in the NCAA about 10 years ago' or 'Gonzaga this year'. Tournament brackets can and do have upsets in which big underdogs can make it through (no disrespect for NUWC intended). Once again, the key is trends.


: If you will allow me a personal digression: At one point, I was considering moving on from Delphi. Before I would leave though, I was polling my brother, sisters, and misc. relatives to see if between us, we could come up with enough dough to fund a Team Johnson. You can bet that I would not have just tossed up my hands and just said, 'We can never compete with the Delphi's & GM's!' I was planning on kicking my former team's behinds ;-) And believe me, my family couldn't come up with a 10th of the budget a typical Delphi team has. Would I have done multiple regionals? Yes, even if we had to stay at the KOA! My point is that I reject the idea that money is the only or even the major limit to competitive teams.

*******
I've said it before, if I was running the team, we would be going to multiple regionals as well. That doesn't mean I wouldn't still lobby for a rule to against this practice. I'm competitive and I want to look out for my own team first. (BTW, have fun staying at a KOA in the Midwest in March .)

I never said money is the only limiting factor. I just said that it IS a factor and it is just the easiest to control. In every major form of competition that I know of where money can have an influence, rules have been put in place to lessen its influence. Examples:

CART: limited practice and technology limitations
IRL: ditto, plus many other measures like mutual practice sessions (ring a bell, Joe? I tried getting this to fly this year.)
NASCAR: ditto
Formula One: Technology limitations (more recent consession to less funded teams)
NFL: Salary Cap
NBA: Salary Cap
NCAA: Scholarship limits, practice limits, and not paying the athletes
Major League Baseball: Luxury Tax

Note that MLB and the NHL desired a salary cap but the players union defeted it in their most recent strikes.

Now, all of those organizations that I listed have a vast number of years more experience running a competition than FIRST. Considering that what I listed is basically ALL major team competitions where money can influence the outcome, and ALL of them have rule in place to limit this influence, I have to believe that this is a correct practice. It's hard to argue with these governing bodies, especially when they all agree on this.

By the way, has anyone not noticed I'm a sports nut?

Speaking of sports, there was an argument in a post below about crappy high school basketball teams. Remember that high school basketball is broken into a class system for the same reasons that I'm arguing here (at least in Michigan). A tiny class D school would find it very difficult to compete against a class A school. (Yeah, I've seen Hoosiers, but I'm talking about trends again, not single instances). Of course, there is still a wide range in the level of competitiveness within each class, but there is a general feeling of a level playing field. There wasn't a feeling of a level playing field before the class system. As long as no feeling of a level playing field exists, people on the short end of the stick get discouraged. If people feel the playing field is level, they can lose and not feel short changed.

On a lighter note: I try to inject some humor into things when I write on occasion (to lighten the mood). I've had people write back at times arguing against a statement that I intended to be humorous. My friends tell me that I have a good sense of humor (I hope they're not lying), so it leads me to believe that we're just all too serious. It also leads me to believe that I ought to stop doing this because it's causing me headaches (that's in the figurative sense ). But anyway, I'll stop my humor if everyone promises to lighten up a little and stop being so serious all the time (that includes me).





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Re: Our team revealed

Posted by Chris, Coach on team #308, Walled Lake Monster, from Walled Lake Schools and TRW Automotive Electronics.

Posted on 4/7/99 12:49 PM MST


In Reply to: holes in hole poking posted by Joe Johnson on 4/6/99 7:18 PM MST:



:Are you telling me that there is no such great engineers at TRW to compete with the likes of Beatty the Elder and Beatty the Younger? You know that there are. FIND THEM!

Of course I had to respond to this one in a little more detail, so here I go...

I honestly think we have a very good team this year. We may not have showed it a Great Lakes, just like you didn't show it at Chicago. We had a lot of functionality on our robot that just wasn't working correctly there that we couldn't get going in the time allotted. But let me warn everyone that everything appeared to be working correctly before shipping to nationals!

I actually went back and looked at the film to see what our scores might have been had we been working properly. What I mean is, we tried to do something and weren't successful because we weren't working properly. Had our robot succeeded when we made these attempts, we would have averaged 441.3 QP per match, good enough for 7th place (better than Beatty, in fact).

I know, 'if 'ifs' and 'buts' were candy and nuts', blah blah blah and all that crap, and this is just pure speculation, but be warned: we're fully functional now.


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Re: Our team revealed

Posted by Dave, Student on team #308, Walled Lake Monster, from Walled Lake Schools and TRW.

Posted on 4/7/99 4:33 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: Our team revealed posted by Chris on 4/7/99 12:49 PM MST:



Ok, only 2 weeks until Florida! And I just have to say, despite who-ever went to multiple regionals, things are going to be WAY different in Florida. I know that this despute has been going on for some time now, and I have to say that what are we all doing this for? I know I'm in it to have fun, and what's the fun in concentrating SOOO hard on making your robot better so you can go and creame the pants of someone else? I think alot of people have lost what this competition is for, and that's to have fun while learning. I know that killing other teams in the competition is a really nice thing to do, and I'd love to be able to do it, but I'm accepting my team's robot for what it is, despite how good or bad we do in Florida, and I plan on just going and having a blast in Florida! From the looks at most of these posts, most of the people are out there to murder and kill.

This is my 2 cents worth on the subject.

Dave Hurt, Driver of Team 308, The Monster



: :Are you telling me that there is no such great engineers at TRW to compete with the likes of Beatty the Elder and Beatty the Younger? You know that there are. FIND THEM!

: Of course I had to respond to this one in a little more detail, so here I go...

: I honestly think we have a very good team this year. We may not have showed it a Great Lakes, just like you didn't show it at Chicago. We had a lot of functionality on our robot that just wasn't working correctly there that we couldn't get going in the time allotted. But let me warn everyone that everything appeared to be working correctly before shipping to nationals!

: I actually went back and looked at the film to see what our scores might have been had we been working properly. What I mean is, we tried to do something and weren't successful because we weren't working properly. Had our robot succeeded when we made these attempts, we would have averaged 441.3 QP per match, good enough for 7th place (better than Beatty, in fact).

: I know, 'if 'ifs' and 'buts' were candy and nuts', blah blah blah and all that crap, and this is just pure speculation, but be warned: we're fully functional now.


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subtly is not easy in e-space

Posted by Joe Johnson, Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 4/7/99 6:31 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: Our team revealed posted by Dave on 4/7/99 4:33 PM MST:



Let me being by saying that while I love to compete and I certainly play this FIRST game with the intent of trying to win, I do not enjoy killing or even embarassing other teams.

If I have given that impression, I am sorry. I really want all teams to do well.

To me, this whole thread has been a very interesting (and not particularly harshly worded) discussion of deeply felt views.

I admit that I don't completely understand folks who have expressed the opinion that such frank discussions are an indication that we all can't get along. Far from it, I think everyone will be able to get along BETTER because we have had a relatively open and frank discussion rather than secret tongue clicking and finger wagging among various factions in and around the pits.

Perhaps it is more difficult to convey subtle shades of opinion on a wwwboard than I realized.

So...

Is it time to shut up already?

Your votes are welcome (though I make no promise to abide by majority rule ;-)

Joe J.


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just to clarify things

Posted by Dave, Student on team #308, Walled Lake Monster, from Walled Lake Schools and TRW.

Posted on 4/7/99 9:38 PM MST


In Reply to: subtly is not easy in e-space posted by Joe Johnson on 4/7/99 6:31 PM MST:



I'm sorry if things were interperted wrong, but I didn't mean to say that the messages on this board tell that we can't get along. I have to agree with you on the fact that having boards like this help us. If you ever have questions about anything, because I know sometimes I can be hard to follow, feel free to e-mail me at bighurt@ameritech.net

One other thing... I don't know who mentioned it, I think it was Chris, who said something about it coming down just to the big 3 and other big teams. I'm sorry for not remembering the guys name, but some philosper guy once said that the little people will eventually rise to the top. Even though the big 3 and those other big teams have a hugh advantage now, just wait a couple years. After, for an example I'm using the TRW group that my team is partnered with (an automotive electronics group), figures out all the tricks of building the robot from doing it a couple of years, they'll have a hugh advantage over the all the mechinacal companys, because things can always be changed and improved with the electronics to make the robot better, while the building designs are limited on what they can do.

13 Days till Florida...

Dave Hurt, Team 308

: Let me being by saying that while I love to compete and I certainly play this FIRST game with the intent of trying to win, I do not enjoy killing or even embarassing other teams.

: If I have given that impression, I am sorry. I really want all teams to do well.

: To me, this whole thread has been a very interesting (and not particularly harshly worded) discussion of deeply felt views.

: I admit that I don't completely understand folks who have expressed the opinion that such frank discussions are an indication that we all can't get along. Far from it, I think everyone will be able to get along BETTER because we have had a relatively open and frank discussion rather than secret tongue clicking and finger wagging among various factions in and around the pits.

: Perhaps it is more difficult to convey subtle shades of opinion on a wwwboard than I realized.

: So...

: Is it time to shut up already?

: Your votes are welcome (though I make no promise to abide by majority rule ;-)

: Joe J.


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I DISAGREE (just kidding - I knew that would grab attentions)

Posted by Chris, Coach on team #308, Walled Lake Monster, from Walled Lake Schools and TRW Automotive Electronics.

Posted on 4/8/99 7:02 AM MST


In Reply to: subtly is not easy in e-space posted by Joe Johnson on 4/7/99 6:31 PM MST:



That was an excellently written post, Joe. I couldn't agree more.

I think you are very correct in stating that subtle shades of opinion are not easily conveyed on a wwwboard. I think it lies in the fact that communication is 2/3 sender and 1/3 receiver (or thereabouts). When you put it in writing, the receiver plays an even bigger role. It's much easier to convey shades when the receiver hears your inflection and sees your body language. Without this, any preconceived notions the receiver may have easily influence the tone they think it's written in. You can begin to convey shades of meaning in writing when you have a book to fill, but I hope no posts here become that long (although some of mine have approached it - and I still didn't get the meaning across ).

Anyway, of course it's not time to shut up. Unless you mean this particular issue of this thread, then perhaps.

You never answered my question: are you going to Florida, or what? The people want to know.


: Let me being by saying that while I love to compete and I certainly play this FIRST game with the intent of trying to win, I do not enjoy killing or even embarassing other teams.

: If I have given that impression, I am sorry. I really want all teams to do well.

: To me, this whole thread has been a very interesting (and not particularly harshly worded) discussion of deeply felt views.

: I admit that I don't completely understand folks who have expressed the opinion that such frank discussions are an indication that we all can't get along. Far from it, I think everyone will be able to get along BETTER because we have had a relatively open and frank discussion rather than secret tongue clicking and finger wagging among various factions in and around the pits.

: Perhaps it is more difficult to convey subtle shades of opinion on a wwwboard than I realized.

: So...

: Is it time to shut up already?

: Your votes are welcome (though I make no promise to abide by majority rule ;-)

: Joe J.


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Subtly misspelling subtlety

Posted by Joe Johnson, Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 4/8/99 6:10 PM MST


In Reply to: I DISAGREE (just kidding - I knew that would grab attentions) posted by Chris on 4/8/99 7:02 AM MST:



I knew that something did not look right in my subject line, but I could not place my finger on before I hit 'Submit' (even with that 'proofread' box defaulting to checked ;-)

On my way to work, it came to me. Subtlety vs. Subtly. I suppose I should get a star for remembering that there is a 'b' in the blasted word :-)

Ah well, at least I tried.

As to whether or not I am going to Florida, follow the link below.

Joe J.


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Re: Please Convince Me

Posted by Tom Vanderslice, Student on team #275, ORHS/AST/Hitachi, from Academy of Science and Technology and Hitachi.

Posted on 4/5/99 8:57 PM MST


In Reply to: Please Convince Me posted by Chris on 4/5/99 6:36 PM MST:



Before I start I'll say I walk the fence on the multiple regionals thing.

But I will say this, you seem to agree that multiple regionals is a
competitive advantage...

: In other words, a competitive advantage or a free trip is not a real added value.

Now the fact of the matter is that this is a competition. Yes, it is
great that FIRST is a good learning experience and you get a technical
education and support the 'spirit, ideals, and mission of FIRST.' But
it still comes down to the fact that this is a competition. And in a
competition you have people who win and people who lose, that's the
way it goes, and unfortunantely very few teams can win, and everyone
accepts that by entering the competition. Everyone who enters FIRST
and shows up with a robot is a 'winner' they have accomplished something
they can be proud of, but in the end it must come down to one team (well
3 teams, 1 alliance) winning, and everyone else losing. The teams that
lose can still be very proud of their accomplishments, but the teams that
win have something extra to be proud of, and in the end everyone's happier
if they win. Now, I'm not saying the technical education and other things
are less important in the 'grand scheme of things' than the competitive
advantage, in fact, they are probably more important, but in the end
a competitive advantage is a serious advantage.

My 2 cents,
Tom







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Re: Multiple Regionals

Posted by Vinny Buchemi, Student on team #386, The Cats, from Lyman Hall and CYTEK.

Posted on 4/6/99 11:30 AM MST


In Reply to: Multiple Regionals posted by Dave on 4/4/99 12:23 PM MST:



Dave,
I couldn't agree more. I have always believed that multiple regionals yeilds an unfare advantage. I hope this rule changes.


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A Simple Proposal

Posted by Dodd Stacy, Engineer on team #95, Lebanon Robotics Team, from Lebanon High School and CRREL/CREARE.

Posted on 4/7/99 9:46 PM MST


In Reply to: Multiple Regionals posted by Dave on 4/4/99 12:23 PM MST:



The teams who are able to go to multiple Regionals seem to feel they benefit from it in many ways and defend the practise. Not too hard to understand. The posts arguing to limit participation in Regionals seem to come from teams who are unable, for one reason or another, to attend more than one. The flavor of the latter posts seems to be that this is an unfair situation, tilted playing field, etc. Again, not too hard to understand that perspective. So I'll offer a simple proposal that speaks to this situation and perhaps offers many other benefits relative to FIRST's goals:

LET ALL TEAMS KEEP THEIR ROBOTS AND WORK ON THEM THROUGHOUT THE SEASON.

This speaks to the very real advantages gained in practise, shakedown, hours on the bot, etc by the 'lucky' teams. I disagree with Chris' analogy here about the expense of open wheel race car practise/testing. All we need is a flat patch of carpet, some electricity, and a roof. And lots of pizza. I think my proposal would do a great deal to give the 'less lucky' teams the same advantages of time with the bot and to level the field. A few other points:

1) This would drastically raise the level of competition as the season marched toward the Nationals. I predict many fewer broken 'bots and no shows. The stay-at-homes would have plenty of opportunity to see the tricks of the 'lucky' (and good!) teams at the early Regionals and develop strategies - and even new mechanisms - to better compete when their day comes.

2) This would give the students the chance to see, and hopefully be inspired by, engineering in the DEVELOPMENT phase of a project. Maybe all you other teams have figured out how to complete (?) the development of your machines in the six weeks. We sure haven't. And I'm awfully glad every time I fly or drive that the engineers who developed those machines had enough time to do a reasonable job.

3) This would give all teams more opportunity to use their bot in fundraising and outreach activities. We are a small team that relys on collective support from a very large number of small companies in a lightly populated area. Nothing works like motivated students showing off and talking about their bot to raise bucks. But, here we sit for 2 months with our bot in a box somewhere!

4) NO competitive athletic team operates this way. Analogous rules would crush sports. No practise or training between games? Come on! How is FIRST supposed to rise to the same level of support, respect, and enthusiasm as sports in our high schools?

I could list several more reasons why I think this is a good idea, but at this point I'd like to stop and see what contrary thoughts it stimulates.

Dodd





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Re: A Simple Proposal

Posted by Jerry Eckert, Engineer on team #140 from Tyngsboro, MA High School and New England Prototype/Brooks Automation.

Posted on 4/7/99 10:21 PM MST


In Reply to: A Simple Proposal posted by Dodd Stacy on 4/7/99 9:46 PM MST:



Sounds like a great idea, Dodd.

- Jerry

: The teams who are able to go to multiple Regionals seem to feel they benefit from it in many ways and defend the practise. Not too hard to understand. The posts arguing to limit participation in Regionals seem to come from teams who are unable, for one reason or another, to attend more than one. The flavor of the latter posts seems to be that this is an unfair situation, tilted playing field, etc. Again, not too hard to understand that perspective. So I'll offer a simple proposal that speaks to this situation and perhaps offers many other benefits relative to FIRST's goals:

: LET ALL TEAMS KEEP THEIR ROBOTS AND WORK ON THEM THROUGHOUT THE SEASON.

: This speaks to the very real advantages gained in practise, shakedown, hours on the bot, etc by the 'lucky' teams. I disagree with Chris' analogy here about the expense of open wheel race car practise/testing. All we need is a flat patch of carpet, some electricity, and a roof. And lots of pizza. I think my proposal would do a great deal to give the 'less lucky' teams the same advantages of time with the bot and to level the field. A few other points:

: 1) This would drastically raise the level of competition as the season marched toward the Nationals. I predict many fewer broken 'bots and no shows. The stay-at-homes would have plenty of opportunity to see the tricks of the 'lucky' (and good!) teams at the early Regionals and develop strategies - and even new mechanisms - to better compete when their day comes.

: 2) This would give the students the chance to see, and hopefully be inspired by, engineering in the DEVELOPMENT phase of a project. Maybe all you other teams have figured out how to complete (?) the development of your machines in the six weeks. We sure haven't. And I'm awfully glad every time I fly or drive that the engineers who developed those machines had enough time to do a reasonable job.

: 3) This would give all teams more opportunity to use their bot in fundraising and outreach activities. We are a small team that relys on collective support from a very large number of small companies in a lightly populated area. Nothing works like motivated students showing off and talking about their bot to raise bucks. But, here we sit for 2 months with our bot in a box somewhere!

: 4) NO competitive athletic team operates this way. Analogous rules would crush sports. No practise or training between games? Come on! How is FIRST supposed to rise to the same level of support, respect, and enthusiasm as sports in our high schools?

: I could list several more reasons why I think this is a good idea, but at this point I'd like to stop and see what contrary thoughts it stimulates.

: Dodd




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6 week fig leaf

Posted by Joe Johnson, Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 4/8/99 4:06 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: A Simple Proposal posted by Jerry Eckert on 4/7/99 10:21 PM MST:



Dodd,

I am with you on keeping the robots.

I think that one thing that this would do is make the competition to build a robot become a 3 month effort not a 6 week affair.

You and I know that this is not just a 6 week program, but we often use the 6 week figure as a fig leaf for unsuspecting newcomers and wary execs ;-)

What are we going to do when you can essentially build a new robot between the last regional and the nationals?

Thoughts?

Joe J.


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Extended Sleep Deprivation

Posted by Raul, Engineer on team #111, Wildstang, from Rolling Meadows & Wheeling HS and Motorola.

Posted on 4/8/99 6:00 AM MST


In Reply to: 6 week fig leaf posted by Joe Johnson on 4/8/99 4:06 AM MST:



I have mixed feelings about this. It would certainly improve the competitiveness of many robots.

You can argue that we wouldn't have to put in so many all-nighters if we had more time.
Or, you can argue that we may just expand the work to fill the time. The powerhouse teams will get even more time to become even better. The temptation to spend more time and money to make a killer robot will be there.

I kind of like the 6 week blitz followed by some extended recovery time. This is especially important with my family life. I like having some time now to go watch my son play baseball or to take my wife out to dinner, etc. Many of us feel pressure from our spouses because we already spend too much time on this. I'm sure each team has members who are on the verge of quiting because this takes up too much of their spare time. However, you can argue that each team can choose to spend the amount of time they want. I just don't have a good feeling about this.

Raul







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