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  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-10-2001, 00:20
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Mike Schroeder Mike Schroeder is offline
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Hey not to say it will change but FIRST is probobly weeding out the "unloyal teams".

and i think there will be a drastic drop in team this and following years
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Unread 07-10-2001, 12:56
Nola Garcia Nola Garcia is offline
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Unloyal Teams??

I don't understand what the term "unloyal teams" means. In all six years of being involved in FIRST it has taken quite a bit of hard work, fundraising, organization ect. to go to Regionals and Nationals. Any team who registers and comes up with a robot should not be called "unloyal". I think that it is a poor choice of words. Everybody kows what it takes to be a FIRST team and all teams should be applauded! The students, parents, mentors, and sponsors are all heroes!!
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Unread 09-10-2001, 13:04
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Mike Schroeder Mike Schroeder is offline
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I chose my words wrong what I ment to say was the team and students that just compete to get to florida and win the big awards Thats what i ment
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Unread 09-10-2001, 18:26
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I have been in FIRST since 1994. I have given alot to FIRST. The thing I do not like was the way the Nationals are being done. I am from team 61. This is the first time that we can not go to the national. This is do because we do not have the funds to book the trip in a short time.

BattleBots open our eyes this year. We were looking for something else to do because the group that we grew to love does not love us any more. How can FIRST, after 8 years of us sending the news and getting alot of team to do FIRST be told sorry you can't go to the nationals.

This year is our last year with FIRST. only because we started our fund raising after the last national or we would not even have signed up this year.

We as a school will be going to BattleBots. We will be putting 3 robots in. under 60lbs, under 120lbs and under 220lbs.

this will cost us so much less than putting one robot in FIRST. Plus as a trade school we can work on these robots all year. We are getting more sponsor now that we are going to BattleBots. And I think that is because they watch it on TV and know more about it.

I am sorry for what FIRST has done. They took a good program at our school and forced us to another event.
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Unread 09-10-2001, 19:06
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I understand your disapppointment with the qualification process for nationals, but to say FIRST "doesn't love us" is not true.

I think most people were amazed nationals remained open for so long; the huge amount of teams and people was always just a little more than they could handle--but they did anyways.

And hopefully this will make nationals a little more "special" to those who can attend, maybe someday it will draw comparisons to March Madness--it probably never would if it remained open.

Oh, and I didn't know about this nationals hub-bub until after I started this thread...I don't think I would have had I known it. While I'm happy that your team may find a competition more suitable to your scenario, I don't think this nationals qualification business is a good reason to consider switching. On the contrary I think it will make it more exciting.

Dan
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Unread 09-10-2001, 21:16
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I am fine having the nationals. but make it fair for everybody. If they had all the regionals earlier and then have the national 2 months for the last regional. then I would say it would mean something. Even if I win a regional I do not have the money to send our robot to Florida. Is that fair. Having a robot that has a chance of winning and never given the chance. The first robot we builtin 1994 never moved. we went from that to beingin the last two year 6th at the national and the past year made it to the round of 16 until the #1 team knock us off.

Fair is not depending on your partners to do well for you to do good. If you do not get the luck of the draw, you have a slim chance of winning. The best robots don't always win. That was find until you bring in that you have to win a regional to make it to national or do something to get a judges eye.

I look out for the students I have. I can't tell these kids that go ahead an work 16-18 hours a day on the robot, but you can't get to the nationals this year. Our sponsors are looking for us to go and we have to tell them sorry wait til next year.

sorry this has put a bad taste in my mouth that I can not over come. or should have to.

The money raised goes a long way in another robot game.

The sad part is I have a College willing to give a scholarship this year for anyone that was involved with FIRST. They are rethinking this.


You can go on and on and say these things about FIRST. I love them very much but they went somewhere I can not go.

Sorry.
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Unread 10-10-2001, 23:51
Carolyn Duncan Carolyn Duncan is offline
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First off, the word fair should NOT be used in any posts about the new rules for the championship event. Before everyone starts posting like a wildfire on a windy prarie, the reason I say this is that life is not fair, so why should we expect things to be fair? I'm not saying I agree with the rules, anyone who knows me or has read any of my posts knows that, the fact is that I don't like the way it was down sized but that is another thread.
Anyway, the plain fact is that these rules have changed the playing field for everyone. If teams decide that they cannot or are unwilling to stay with FIRST we cannot thumb our noses at them and say that they are not true FIRSTers. We can move on and forget tehm or we can ask ourselves to look at why they have made thier decision, this is assuming that we care enough to share our time from our busy teams. Which is worse, being a big fish in a little pond or a small fish in a big pond? I cannot imagine myself not being in an environment where I am not working with power tools and sharing time with high school students. I have recruited students for many teams, some of which picked my brain for info then started a team at their schools. most of the students have been kids who didn't participate in clubs or hang out much with kids at school. they were ones who stayed to themselves and rarely came out of their little shells. Now I can't keep them quiet. If kids cannot find this experience through FIRST for whatever reason, then send them where they can. If you go into a store and they don't have the product you're looking for they tell you where you might go look for it. Why can't we extend our gracious proffesionalism to include understanding of why a team feels it is time to end their run with FIRST? I hope I have not offended too many people or rambled too much.
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Unread 11-10-2001, 11:38
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Quote:
[i]I say this is that life is not fair, so why should we expect things to be fair? [/color] [/b]

Life ? Fair ? Robotics ?

Life is not fair yes. I have been trying to get kids do robotics. I will not get kids involved if they know going in to it that things are not fair.

What a statement Fair. This game has always not been fair because of the sponsorship. Some teams have so much money they can go to all the regionals to test there robot out at each regional. and pay for things other team can't.. This I would say is still fair becuase a team that build a robot usings very little money can still beat the one that spends alot of money.

What is not fair is not getting that chance.

So why would you stick around when that happens.

Maybe the rules change again next year and the odd teams can't get in. and only the teams that get in are the teams that do well at the regionals. that will do us in again because of the money problems.

If the game is not fair WHY PLAY.

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Unread 11-10-2001, 22:45
Carolyn Duncan Carolyn Duncan is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Norton
If the game is not fair WHY PLAY.
Life is not fair, why live?
Just because something is not fair doesn't mean it's not right. When I was still living at home my mom's rules were not fair but they were there and a few of them turned out to be right on target. Maybe it is a bit much but maybe the people brainstorming ran out of ideas. We don't know what was thrown around up ther and we can't really change it. We can only voice our opinions and hope for the best. By not getting your students involved in something you see as unfair you are teaching them not to try when it seems as though they'll really have to work hard for it. You are showing them the easy road. Sort of like a math teacher teaching short cuts and not the entire work behind a problem. I'm not saying that what you are doing is wrong, I support and understand the decission to leave FIRST if a team feels it necessary. It is the motives that I question. I'm not trying to aggrivate any situations, I only hope that this comes across in th way I hope it will.
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Unread 12-10-2001, 07:56
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Quote:
"Life is not fair, why live?
Just because something is not fair doesn't mean it's not right. When I was still living at home my mom's rules were not fair but they were there and a few of them turned out to be right on target."


I do not know what life you have been living. But if you think your parents were unfair that is because there was something they were trying to protect you from. This is a "game" that is it. the game that you build a robot and play. The game tell you you can't win why PLAY

A game that you have to put so much time into it and to be told sorry you can't play.

Fair is getting that chance. Do use life as a pawn in this. Look at it for what it is. Very unfair.

If they do not want to lose people they should of not pushed so hard to get more people then they can handle. makes no sense.

FIRST always said they would take everybody. They knew how big they were going to get.

FIRST did not want to listen to us. I was one of few people that went and talk in August about what to do.

That made no different

Battlebots: you play pre-matches to go onto the finals.. but you are there at the compitition. everybody gets a chance. The top robots do not have to go thru this pre-game. they just go onto the finals. Maybe FIRST should look at there format.

FIRST could of done many things to solve this problem. they chose the easy way out.
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Unread 12-10-2001, 09:11
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Maybe......

Maybe they just simply ran out of time to decide things......Maybe next year they will have a better solution on how to run things, after they see how this upcoming season goes.......

Just an idea......
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Unread 12-10-2001, 09:21
BSMFIRST BSMFIRST is offline
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Fair to what ends?

When you say "fair" you mean it may not be fair in terms of the competition. But, really, we know that's not necessarily the point of FIRST--it's for inspiration and recognition, right? Some may not agree, but I don't think nationals is necessary for either of those--sure it helps.
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Unread 12-10-2001, 10:29
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how do you get nationally recognized if you can't go. FIRST was doing a good job getting kids into the robotic field because they had goals. and a good direction with this. I can teach kids all day every day in robotics. why should I now go to FIRST when they don't care if I go to the nationals.

My sponsors want to know what exposure they get. Yes I tell them the kids learn more meanning when the work force gets these kids they will be smarter. They are looking at the big piture When I tell them there is no national unless they want to pay at the last minute if we win a regional, they tell me why am I in a competition that does not offer that.

Once again I am back to BattleBots.

They teach kids if you win you get money so you can make a better robot. they teach a kid if you build a great robot maybe they will build a toy after it.

Yes money isn't everything but lets look at it:

BattleBots
You build a robot ( teaching kids about robots)

You play the game ( If you win you get money, TV exposure and More)

You have all year to make robot( given kids more time to make the robots )

You can enter in different wieght classes (more kids can do more)

You pay a lot less to enter.

FIRST

you build a robot

You play the game ( for a trophie, medal)

You have only six week to build the robot ( everybody stresses out)

One robot

You pay alot more


You tell me who is not looking at the big picture.
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Unread 12-10-2001, 12:48
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Jason Morrella Jason Morrella is offline
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Who's looking at the big picture? Here's my take...

Your comment of FIRST not looking at the big picture troubles me. Your arguments seem to be based on some incorrect information about both programs - maybe pointing out some of these differences well help:

.....FIRST tries to provide 17 regionals in 5 weeks, trying to juggle that schedule best they can to be convenient to teams and lower travel costs for teams to compete. Some events land on Easter weekend, but that is because of the 17 in 5 weeks scenarios - at least they provide 17 options for teams

.....Battlebots starts ONE SINGLE event for high school kids, has ALL YEAR to pick a date, and picks Good Friday & Easter weekend. "Big Picture"???? You want to know why they picked THE ONE weekend which would be most inconvenient for many families? Because they answer to the TV company, not the best interest of students. (and that is not a guess - I know 1st hand from those involved that the date was picked by the TV producers with no concern for holiday/religious concerns of students)

Who "loves" their teams more? Seems obvious to me...FIRST

The main point of all your arguements is that FIRST is limiting the National and not all teams can go. You argue Battlebots as an alternative - yet the SINGLE Battlebots event IS NOT OPEN TO ALL TEAMS AND WILL HAVE A LIMIT - just as FIRST has at Epcot. Only Difference - FIRST offers 17 other competitions around the country for teams to enter and reduce travel costs.

Who "loves" their teams more? Seems obvious to me...FIRST

I will answer your other statements comparing Battlebots and FIRST after each of your comments:

You say about Battlebots:
They teach kids if you win you get money so you can make a better robot. they teach a kid if you build a great robot maybe they will build a toy after it.

I say about FIRST: EXACTLY!!!!! FIRST teaches kids that if you involved your school & your community (get more support, funding, resources) you can build a better robot. They teach kids there is more to life than concentrating on TOYS & MONEY! It is better to do something important, advance your education & go to college, involve your community and try to make it better, and to make a difference in the world.

Who "loves" their teams more? Seems obvious to me...FIRST


You say about Battlebots:
You build a robot ( teaching kids about robots)

I say about FIRST:
You build a robot and A LOT MORE (teaching kids not only engineering skills, but programming, graphics animation, how to build a business model, time management, accountability, awards submissions, working with real role models & professionals involved with the kids to inspire them - not to destroy someone else, win money & get a toy.
You play the game (have THREE days - not one like Battlebots. You play many times, getting to see some results to your long & hard work. FIRST provides a National like Battlebots, but also 17 REGIONALS so teams get to play more and aren't forced into travel costs if they can't afford it)

Who "loves" their teams more? Seems obvious to me...FIRST

You say about Battlebots & FIRST:
You play the game ( If you win you get money, TV exposure and More) FIRST - You play the game ( for a trophie, medal)

I again say EXACTLY!!! FIRST says the process and the learning is what is important. Battlebots (and it seems you) say the winning, the prizes, and money are what is important.

Who "loves" their teams more? Seems obvious to me...FIRST

You say about Battlebots & FIRST:
In Battlebots you have all year to build the robot, in FIRST you have only six week to build the robot ( everybody stresses out)

I say: who is preparing kids for the real life scenarios of College and Professional life? Do kids have all year to finish a term paper - no. Do we has a adults get all year to finish any assignment or task - rarely. Which of the two is challenging kids with a more life like experience which will help them better once they are out of high school? Once again, winner - FIRST.


You say FIRST offers one weight class but that in "Battlebots
You can enter in different wieght classes (more kids can do more)"
Let me paste DIRECTLY FROM THE BATTLEBOTS WEB PAGE about their high school event: """This will be a single (1) weight class event open to Middleweight robots only."""
Only difference - the FIRST game has various engineering challenges as oppossed to just destroying your oppenent. In a FIRST game, many teams are able to build small robots (under bar), medium robots (bridge, balance), and large robots (7 foot goals). By your very standars - it is actually FIRST which gives teams & kids the ability to build various sized robots. again...

Who "loves" their teams more? Seems obvious to me...FIRST

You say Battlebots is a lot less to enter and FIRST is more expensive. You are only looking at the registration fee. That does not include the parts, the motors, the control system, the travel to Florida (while many FIRST teams have local regionals with no travel expense), the limitless parts allowed in Battlebots, etc... I challenge you to tell me how many of the successful bots at the March Battlebots High School event actually spent less than $10,000. you won't find many - so Battlebots is not less expensive than FIRST, and is actually more expensive than FIRST to the majority of teams who FIRST provides local/regional competitions.


I am sorry this is so long, but I have been watching all these posts back and forth, and have just been amazed at the amount of incorrect information these arguments are being based on. Mike - as a fellow teacher, I have the utmost respect for you and your dedication to providing a postive experience for your students. I also have the common respect to realize that sometimes we just have to agree to disagree - so this post is not meant to be disrespectful in anyway. It is just that I see many passionate, dedicated people seemingly overreacting based on emotions because they are disappointed at the new FIRST limits in Orlando (which are reality and HAD TO HAPPEN. At least FIRST killed themselves for 10 years to allow everyone in, while Battlebots isn't even trying - having limits at their 1st event)

You previously said "FIRST doesn't love us" anymore. If FIRST was in this for money and Ratings - you are right, they would hold ONE event, on a date determined by the TV company, and put all their resources into that one event so they could make money - you would be right. Instead, FIRST is so concerned about ALL schools & students getting the opportunity and about keeping travel costs down for teams - that they instead increase the amount of tournaments in the country every year (17 regionals this year).

You ask who is not looking at the big picture. I'll let each person answer that for themselves. But I can answer who IS looking at the big picture, and the winner there is CLEARLY FIRST.

For those not looking at the big picture (or at least see the big picture in different colors than myself), those more concerned about money & toys than inspiration & real life experience - maybe Battlebots does fill a niche and is a better program for them.

I haven't posted in awhile - so this is my 2 cents for the last month or so all turned in at once. Sorry about the length.

Jason
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Unread 12-10-2001, 13:38
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just to clear some things up Battlebots yes have one game for students but they also put on one in the fall and late spring for everybody else so there is three competition a school can go to.


I have been in First since 1995, the school here has been it since 1994. I have an idea what has been going on in the past years. I have seen other teams come and go because of the things FIRST has done.

I could go on and on about thing but I am not a great writer so I can not get my point across as clear as I could hope for.

Give me a game were I can play and have a final winner. not a game were if you do end up winning, there our other robots better but you will never know.

FIRST is good of what they have done. I think they are going to hurt themself because of people like me that see this is getting out of control.

I am only talking for myself.

Most of the teams on the waiting list are not going to be happy if they can not get into a regional or national.
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