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Unread 24-06-2002, 01:46
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Re: WHAT???..

Posted by Jason Rudolph at 03/09/2001 3:47 PM EST


Coach on team #459, Rampage, from University of Florida/Eastside High School and Adaptive Equipment.


In Reply to: Re: WHAT???..
Posted by Patrick Dingle on 03/08/2001 9:45 PM EST:



Well, in our case, we found a local company to help us out. Now, this company can get us whatever materials we need from various companies, like McMaster. However, since they are constantly getting things from these companies, they pay for our shipping. So, really, it IS cheaper for us to get from another catalog. Plus, many other catalogs don't run out of materials, or parts as SPI does. So, SPI does have it's benefits for some teams, but is a hinderence to others. That's what was ggreat about alst year. If SPI was a hinderence to you, you could buy from wherever you wanted. While at the same time, if it was easier for you to get it from SPI, you could, and it didn't count against your allowable material on the robot.

Jason
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Unread 24-06-2002, 01:46
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Re: WHAT???..

Posted by Thomas A. Frank at 03/09/2001 4:53 PM EST


Engineer on team #121, The Islanders/Rhode Warrior, from Middletown (RI) High School and Naval Undersea Warfare Center.


In Reply to: Re: WHAT???..
Posted by Patrick Dingle on 03/08/2001 9:45 PM EST:



: All I'm saying... for us, it is a LOT cheaper to purchase sprockets through SPI when they charge ONLY SHIPPING for them then when we purchase them through another catalog such as mcmaster carr.



Jason;

Assuming SPI has a size that mets your needs, and assuming it is in stock, you are probably right when looked at in a narrow way, but while I can see what you are saying, I think you might be missing the bigger picture.

Under last years rules, you could have gone over to your local bicycle shop and asked them to donate 20 feet of chain and some sprockets. I guarantee you would have gotten them (probably used, but who cares?), and they would really have been free (ignoring the thank you letters 34 cents postage).

I don't have any problem with SPI doing this, and making money at it. That's how our economic system is supposed to wrok. But with the freedom to engage in such a business, there exists a responsibility that requires that you be able to provide the goods/services required in a timely and cost effective manner. SPI is not always very good at this. Thus I think that FIRST needs to continue loosening the construction rules to make it easier for teams to utilize whatever they have on hand to build the machine.

It is hard enough getting volunteers to do this without annoying those who do give of their time with absurd rules that do not accomplish anything positive.

Everybody has access to a "junk bin" of some sort or other. The standard refrain I heard was "why can't we just use this (fill in the blank) which is just sitting hear". 'Cause that's the rules (grumble, grumble).

Makes it tough to get people to volunteer for next year...

Tom Frank


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Unread 24-06-2002, 01:46
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Re: WHAT???..

Posted by Jason Rudolph at 03/09/2001 6:42 PM EST


Coach on team #459, Rampage, from University of Florida/Eastside High School and Adaptive Equipment.


In Reply to: Re: WHAT???..
Posted by Thomas A. Frank on 03/09/2001 4:53 PM EST:



um, I agree with you, it was Patrick who posted that.
Read my message above.

Jason
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Unread 24-06-2002, 01:46
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Oops, sorry for misidentifying who I was responding to (EOM)

Posted by Thomas A. Frank at 03/12/2001 5:32 PM EST


Engineer on team #121, The Islanders/Rhode Warrior, from Middletown (RI) High School and Naval Undersea Warfare Center.


In Reply to: Re: WHAT???..
Posted by Jason Rudolph on 03/09/2001 6:42 PM EST:



: um, I agree with you, it was Patrick who posted that.
: Read my message above.

: Jason


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Unread 24-06-2002, 01:46
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Re: WHAT???..

Posted by Patrick Dingle at 03/09/2001 6:58 PM EST


Coach on team #639, Red B^2, from Ithaca High School and Cornell University.


In Reply to: Re: WHAT???..
Posted by Thomas A. Frank on 03/09/2001 4:53 PM EST:



Yes, it is clearly me who you meant to address the message to. Until today, I was unaware that chains and sprockets had been on the additional hardware list... And as i've mentioned before, I see no reason why they shouldn't. All I'm saying, is thank you to Small Parts for the discount they are providing, because it did help out our team.

Patrick

: : All I'm saying... for us, it is a LOT cheaper to purchase sprockets through SPI when they charge ONLY SHIPPING for them then when we purchase them through another catalog such as mcmaster carr.


: Jason;

: Assuming SPI has a size that mets your needs, and assuming it is in stock, you are probably right when looked at in a narrow way, but while I can see what you are saying, I think you might be missing the bigger picture.

: Under last years rules, you could have gone over to your local bicycle shop and asked them to donate 20 feet of chain and some sprockets. I guarantee you would have gotten them (probably used, but who cares?), and they would really have been free (ignoring the thank you letters 34 cents postage).

: I don't have any problem with SPI doing this, and making money at it. That's how our economic system is supposed to wrok. But with the freedom to engage in such a business, there exists a responsibility that requires that you be able to provide the goods/services required in a timely and cost effective manner. SPI is not always very good at this. Thus I think that FIRST needs to continue loosening the construction rules to make it easier for teams to utilize whatever they have on hand to build the machine.

: It is hard enough getting volunteers to do this without annoying those who do give of their time with absurd rules that do not accomplish anything positive.

: Everybody has access to a "junk bin" of some sort or other. The standard refrain I heard was "why can't we just use this (fill in the blank) which is just sitting hear". 'Cause that's the rules (grumble, grumble).

: Makes it tough to get people to volunteer for next year...

: Tom Frank


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Unread 24-06-2002, 01:46
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Re: Wire EDM for 150% of SPI Cost!

Posted by Ken Wilson at 03/08/2001 3:30 PM EST


Engineer on team #248, FEMEX, from Philadelphia Girls High and PECO Energy Company.


In Reply to: Re: Wire EDM for 150% of SPI Cost!
Posted by Raul on 03/07/2001 1:59 PM EST:



We did basically the same thing with an abrasive waterjet-an awesome addition to our shop. Ours can hold sizes to w/in 0.001" over the relatively small area of a 100 tooth sprocket. With ops co$t$
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Unread 24-06-2002, 01:46
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This rule hindered us too.

Posted by Andy Baker at 03/07/2001 10:38 AM EST


Engineer on team #45, TechnoKats, from Kokomo High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.


In Reply to: Wire Burned Sprockets
Posted by Michael Ciavaglia on 03/07/2001 8:43 AM EST:



Only buying sprockets and gears from SPI really hindered our design capability. We've weened ourself away from EDMing gears, and we don't want to go back.

This rule limited the flexibility of our drive train's ratio, and speed of getting sprockets delivered to us was slow, compared with a local supplier. We are using 16 (qty) 12-tooth, 35 type sprockets on our robot. We had to wait a bit for these and I'm sure that we drained the supply of this heavily-used sprocket.

Andy B.



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Unread 24-06-2002, 01:46
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Re: Wire Burned Sprockets

Posted by Thomas A. Frank at 03/07/2001 5:49 PM EST


Engineer on team #121, The Islanders/Rhode Warrior, from Middletown (RI) High School and Naval Undersea Warfare Center.


In Reply to: Wire Burned Sprockets
Posted by Michael Ciavaglia on 03/07/2001 8:43 AM EST:



: Does anybody know why they changed the rule back?

I suspect that it was to maximize the amount of pain felt by the teams, so as to distract us from the fact that this year isn't really a competition in the conventional sense of the word.

In as much as SPI has a lousy selection of gears in 25 pitch (many of which weren't in stock), it was certainly limiting.

I sincerely hope that FIRST not only goes back to last years rules on materials, but extends them so that teams without great shop support have at least some reasonable options for designing their machines...no team should have to compromise their design because they can't fabricate something that anyone with any sense would go to the local hardware store to buy!

I also hope they go back to us actually competing...

Tom Frank


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Unread 24-06-2002, 01:46
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Re: Wire Burned Sprockets, yeah Thomas

Posted by nick237 at 03/08/2001 7:46 PM EST


Engineer on team #237, sie h2o bots, from Watertown high school ct and sieman co.


In Reply to: Re: Wire Burned Sprockets
Posted by Thomas A. Frank on 03/07/2001 5:49 PM EST:



Way to go Thomas.......
Would love to buy you a Beer ( or Dew ) for that one.
Look me up in Florida, Nick team 237, were staying at the all stars. OK.
Nick



: : Does anybody know why they changed the rule back?

: I suspect that it was to maximize the amount of pain felt by the teams, so as to distract us from the fact that this year isn't really a competition in the conventional sense of the word.

: In as much as SPI has a lousy selection of gears in 25 pitch (many of which weren't in stock), it was certainly limiting.

: I sincerely hope that FIRST not only goes back to last years rules on materials, but extends them so that teams without great shop support have at least some reasonable options for designing their machines...no team should have to compromise their design because they can't fabricate something that anyone with any sense would go to the local hardware store to buy!

: I also hope they go back to us actually competing...

: Tom Frank


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