Go to Post You inspire your way. I'll inspire my way. - Andrew Schreiber [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Old Forum Archives > 2001
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 3 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-06-2002, 04:09
archiver archiver is offline
Forum Archival System
#0047 (ChiefDelphi)
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Pontiac, MI
Posts: 21,214
archiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond repute
shafts, gears and wheels....

Posted by nick237 at 05/09/2001 10:43 PM EST


Engineer on team #237, sie h2o bots, from Watertown high school ct and sieman co.



I had a thought last year but to late in the game to try it but I am going to see if I can cure the whole " GRUB SCREW or KEY WAY " issue.
Most people have long pondered the thought of HOW to get things to stay on shafts for a long time now and I would say we are equaly divided between the main two. I intend to try a third way and see if this works better. EDM machines are now becoming practical house hold objects so why not EDM the gears and or sprockets with Square holes, the ends of the shafts can be ground or milled to fit and fixing a square peg in a square hole is easier than round.....
Is this a worth while idea?
nick921



__________________
This message was archived from an earlier forum system. Some information may have been left out. Start new discussion in the current forums, and refer back to these threads when necessary.
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-06-2002, 04:09
archiver archiver is offline
Forum Archival System
#0047 (ChiefDelphi)
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Pontiac, MI
Posts: 21,214
archiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond repute
Re: shafts, gears and wheels....

Posted by Anthony Lapp at 05/10/2001 10:34 AM EST


Engineer on team #221, MI Roboworks, from Michigan Technological University.


In Reply to: shafts, gears and wheels....
Posted by nick237 on 05/09/2001 10:43 PM EST:



we use it all the time....it works great. I suggest you give it a go.

Anthoyn Lapp



__________________
This message was archived from an earlier forum system. Some information may have been left out. Start new discussion in the current forums, and refer back to these threads when necessary.
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-06-2002, 04:09
archiver archiver is offline
Forum Archival System
#0047 (ChiefDelphi)
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Pontiac, MI
Posts: 21,214
archiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond repute
Re: shafts, gears and wheels....

Posted by Patrick Dingle at 05/10/2001 4:36 PM EST


College Student on team #639, Red B^2, from Ithaca High School and Cornell University.


In Reply to: shafts, gears and wheels....
Posted by nick237 on 05/09/2001 10:43 PM EST:



I, too, have pondered the purpose of all these circular things. I propose we bring back square wheels.

In seriousness, though, I think that sounds like a worthwile thing to at least try. I can't think of any real reasons why it wouldn't work... seems like it would work quite well.... but let the real engineers speak on the matter.

Patrick

: I had a thought last year but to late in the game to try it but I am going to see if I can cure the whole " GRUB SCREW or KEY WAY " issue.
: Most people have long pondered the thought of HOW to get things to stay on shafts for a long time now and I would say we are equaly divided between the main two. I intend to try a third way and see if this works better. EDM machines are now becoming practical house hold objects so why not EDM the gears and or sprockets with Square holes, the ends of the shafts can be ground or milled to fit and fixing a square peg in a square hole is easier than round.....
: Is this a worth while idea?
: nick921





__________________
This message was archived from an earlier forum system. Some information may have been left out. Start new discussion in the current forums, and refer back to these threads when necessary.
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-06-2002, 04:09
archiver archiver is offline
Forum Archival System
#0047 (ChiefDelphi)
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Pontiac, MI
Posts: 21,214
archiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond repute
Re: shafts, gears and wheels....

Posted by Patrick Dingle at 05/10/2001 4:47 PM EST


College Student on team #639, Red B^2, from Ithaca High School and Cornell University.


In Reply to: Re: shafts, gears and wheels....
Posted by Patrick Dingle on 05/10/2001 4:36 PM EST:



: I, too, have pondered the purpose of all these circular things. I propose we bring back square wheels.

: In seriousness, though, I think that sounds like a worthwile thing to at least try. I can't think of any real reasons why it wouldn't work... seems like it would work quite well.... but let the real engineers speak on the matter.

: Patrick

: : I had a thought last year but to late in the game to try it but I am going to see if I can cure the whole " GRUB SCREW or KEY WAY " issue.
: : Most people have long pondered the thought of HOW to get things to stay on shafts for a long time now and I would say we are equaly divided between the main two. I intend to try a third way and see if this works better. EDM machines are now becoming practical house hold objects so why not EDM the gears and or sprockets with Square holes, the ends of the shafts can be ground or milled to fit and fixing a square peg in a square hole is easier than round.....
: : Is this a worth while idea?
: : nick921


__________________
This message was archived from an earlier forum system. Some information may have been left out. Start new discussion in the current forums, and refer back to these threads when necessary.
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-06-2002, 04:09
archiver archiver is offline
Forum Archival System
#0047 (ChiefDelphi)
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Pontiac, MI
Posts: 21,214
archiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond repute
Re: shafts, gears and wheels....

Posted by Matt Reiland at 05/10/2001 6:23 PM EST


Engineer on team #226 from Troy, Troy Athens and General Motors CRW.


In Reply to: shafts, gears and wheels....
Posted by nick237 on 05/09/2001 10:43 PM EST:



The technique you listed Nick is used on most of the larger battlebots that are using motors over 1 horsepower. They swear by it
__________________
This message was archived from an earlier forum system. Some information may have been left out. Start new discussion in the current forums, and refer back to these threads when necessary.
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-06-2002, 04:09
archiver archiver is offline
Forum Archival System
#0047 (ChiefDelphi)
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Pontiac, MI
Posts: 21,214
archiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond repute
Re: shafts, gears and wheels....

Posted by Ken Patton at 05/10/2001 9:19 PM EST


Engineer on team #65, The Huskie Brigade, from Pontiac Northern High School and GM Powertrain.


In Reply to: shafts, gears and wheels....
Posted by nick237 on 05/09/2001 10:43 PM EST:



We've been using square holes for 5 years. They are reliable and easy to assemble/disassemble.

Ken



__________________
This message was archived from an earlier forum system. Some information may have been left out. Start new discussion in the current forums, and refer back to these threads when necessary.
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-06-2002, 04:09
archiver archiver is offline
Forum Archival System
#0047 (ChiefDelphi)
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Pontiac, MI
Posts: 21,214
archiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond repute
sticking with double d, thanks...

Posted by Joe Johnson at 05/10/2001 10:53 PM EST


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.


In Reply to: Re: shafts, gears and wheels....
Posted by Ken Patton on 05/10/2001 9:19 PM EST:



Intellectually, I know that a well designed square hole
and shaft pair can work just fine.

But...

Emotionally, I just can't get past the feeling that
spinning things aught to be roundish.

Since, for me at least, engineering is primarily an
emotion driven experience, I am sticking to my beloved
double d solution.

Also, I have always been able to make
them work well for me, so why change now?

Joe J.

P.S. I am not kidding when I say that engineering is
primarily an emotion driven activity for me. It is the
emotional part of my brain that tells me when the
direction I am going is a good one or not. I credit my
emotional thinking with nearly every innovative design
I have ever come up with.

Of course, the intellectual part of my brain does the
detail work much later but typically this is well after
my emotions are sure of the right path: Either I love
this new idea of mine and I will stick with it through
thick and thin or I despise that frumpy tart of an idea
and I am going to chase after that sexy new number I
caught a glimps of a few moments ago ;-)

Many of the creative engineers I admire have similar
approaches to engineering though perhaps they don't
express it in quite the same terms as I do. JJ



__________________
This message was archived from an earlier forum system. Some information may have been left out. Start new discussion in the current forums, and refer back to these threads when necessary.
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-06-2002, 04:09
archiver archiver is offline
Forum Archival System
#0047 (ChiefDelphi)
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Pontiac, MI
Posts: 21,214
archiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond repute
Well Said, Joe

Posted by Dodd Stacy at 05/11/2001 10:04 AM EST


Engineer on team #95, Lebanon Robotics Team, from Lebanon High School and CRREL/CREARE.


In Reply to: sticking with double d, thanks...
Posted by Joe Johnson on 05/10/2001 10:53 PM EST:



: Intellectually, I know that a well designed square hole
: and shaft pair can work just fine.

: But...

: Emotionally, I just can't get past the feeling that
: spinning things aught to be roundish.

: Since, for me at least, engineering is primarily an
: emotion driven experience, I am sticking to my beloved
: double d solution.

: Also, I have always been able to make
: them work well for me, so why change now?

: Joe J.

: P.S. I am not kidding when I say that engineering is
: primarily an emotion driven activity for me. It is the
: emotional part of my brain that tells me when the
: direction I am going is a good one or not. I credit my
: emotional thinking with nearly every innovative design
: I have ever come up with.

: Of course, the intellectual part of my brain does the
: detail work much later but typically this is well after
: my emotions are sure of the right path: Either I love
: this new idea of mine and I will stick with it through
: thick and thin or I despise that frumpy tart of an idea
: and I am going to chase after that sexy new number I
: caught a glimps of a few moments ago ;-)

: Many of the creative engineers I admire have similar
: approaches to engineering though perhaps they don't
: express it in quite the same terms as I do. JJ

I can't add a thing to this sentiment.

But for transmitting torque from a shaft to a disc, all of the various spline shapes (square, double D, key, etc) and pin details that have been mentioned involve varying degrees of stress concentration. There is a family of spirals that can be employed in splines with various numbers of lobes that uniformly distributes the stresses in the shaft and disc resulting from torque transmission. If you have EDM capability, it's not difficult to cut this shape. An ellipse with moderately high eccentricity is a reasonable approximation of a 2 lobe implementation of this approach.

Dodd


__________________
This message was archived from an earlier forum system. Some information may have been left out. Start new discussion in the current forums, and refer back to these threads when necessary.
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-06-2002, 04:09
archiver archiver is offline
Forum Archival System
#0047 (ChiefDelphi)
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Pontiac, MI
Posts: 21,214
archiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Well Said, Joe

Posted by ChrisH at 05/11/2001 3:51 PM EST


Engineer on team #330, Beach 'Bots, from Hope Chapel Academy and NASA JPL, J & F Machine, Raytheon, et al.


In Reply to: Well Said, Joe
Posted by Dodd Stacy on 05/11/2001 10:04 AM EST:




: There is a family of spirals that can be employed in splines with various numbers of lobes that uniformly distributes the stresses in the shaft and disc resulting from torque transmission. If you have EDM capability, it's not difficult to cut this shape. An ellipse with moderately high eccentricity is a reasonable approximation of a 2 lobe implementation of this approach.

: Dodd

Would you care to elaborate on the spirals? A name or better yet an equation would be helpful. I've been playing with involutes lately for gears, is this what you mean?

ChrisH



__________________
This message was archived from an earlier forum system. Some information may have been left out. Start new discussion in the current forums, and refer back to these threads when necessary.
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-06-2002, 04:09
archiver archiver is offline
Forum Archival System
#0047 (ChiefDelphi)
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Pontiac, MI
Posts: 21,214
archiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond repute
Spiral Definition

Posted by Dodd Stacy at 05/12/2001 10:44 AM EST


Engineer on team #95, Lebanon Robotics Team, from Lebanon High School and CRREL/CREARE.


In Reply to: Re: Well Said, Joe
Posted by ChrisH on 05/11/2001 3:51 PM EST:




: Would you care to elaborate on the spirals? A name or better yet an equation would be helpful. I've been playing with involutes lately for gears, is this what you mean?

: ChrisH

The spiral is defined in polar coordinates by:

THETA = [(R/Ri)^2 - 1]^1/2 + Arcsin (Ri/R) - (pi/2),

where Ri is some initial non-zero radius and serves to scale the curve. I don't know whether this family has a name - I couldn't find one.

The attribute of the curve is that when it is rotated and repeated, the local perpendicular distance between the two curves is constant along their full length. If "male" and "female" surfaces are used in a spline arrangement to transmit torque, the elastic compressive strain perpendicular to the surface is also constant along the length of the curve, so the stress is likewise uniformly distributed. No part of the stressed interface yields early.

If you have access to the patent office database, US # 5,957,645 describes application of this shape to the driving of recess head threaded fasteners. We found we could apply more than twice as much torque to aircraft threaded fasteners w/o damaging the screw head or tool as was possible without destroying the best existing commercial drive system (Torq Set tm). This has positive impact in MRO of aircraft.

Dodd



__________________
This message was archived from an earlier forum system. Some information may have been left out. Start new discussion in the current forums, and refer back to these threads when necessary.
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-06-2002, 04:09
archiver archiver is offline
Forum Archival System
#0047 (ChiefDelphi)
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Pontiac, MI
Posts: 21,214
archiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond repute
access to the patent office database

Posted by Ken Leung at 05/12/2001 4:30 PM EST


College Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Henry M. Gunn Senior High School.


In Reply to: Spiral Definition
Posted by Dodd Stacy on 05/12/2001 10:44 AM EST:



With the help of Google, I got access to the patent office database within 5 minutes after I read the message about pat #5,957,645...

Here is the link fo the Patent and Trademark office:

http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html

I found out in the quick search you can just enter 5,957,645 and they will show you the result as "Spiral drive system for threaded fasteners"

You can click the name for description, and click "image" on the top of that screen and take a look of the shape...


__________________
This message was archived from an earlier forum system. Some information may have been left out. Start new discussion in the current forums, and refer back to these threads when necessary.
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-06-2002, 04:09
archiver archiver is offline
Forum Archival System
#0047 (ChiefDelphi)
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Pontiac, MI
Posts: 21,214
archiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond repute
does anyone else recognize the name on that patent? (eom)

Posted by Joe Ross at 05/13/2001 4:47 AM EST


College Student on team #330, Beach Bot, from Hope Chapel Academy and NASA/JPL , J&F Machine, and Raytheon.


In Reply to: Spiral Definition
Posted by Dodd Stacy on 05/12/2001 10:44 AM EST:



EOM = some really cool acronym, but I'm not as creative as Jess


__________________
This message was archived from an earlier forum system. Some information may have been left out. Start new discussion in the current forums, and refer back to these threads when necessary.
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-06-2002, 04:09
archiver archiver is offline
Forum Archival System
#0047 (ChiefDelphi)
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Pontiac, MI
Posts: 21,214
archiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond repute
Delphion has patents online as well...

Posted by Joe Johnson at 05/13/2001 1:11 PM EST


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.


In Reply to: does anyone else recognize the name on that patent? (eom)
Posted by Joe Ross on 05/13/2001 4:47 AM EST:



Delpion.com also has patents online for searching and
printing etc.

If I do this right, you should be able to see the first
page of Dodd's patent below. If not, go to the
Delphion.com site and search for the patent by number
or by name (how many Dodd Stacys can there be? unlike
Joseph Johnson ;-)


Joe J.







__________________
This message was archived from an earlier forum system. Some information may have been left out. Start new discussion in the current forums, and refer back to these threads when necessary.
  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-06-2002, 04:09
archiver archiver is offline
Forum Archival System
#0047 (ChiefDelphi)
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Pontiac, MI
Posts: 21,214
archiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond repute
4 patents for the estimable Mr. Dodd W. Stacy...

Posted by Joe Johnson at 05/13/2001 1:28 PM EST


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.


In Reply to: Delphion has patents online as well...
Posted by Joe Johnson on 05/13/2001 1:11 PM EST:



Out of curiosity, I actually did a search on Dodd's
patents.

Looks like he's got 4 issued so far.

A wide variety of areas: Self pumping solar heates,
spiral drive fastenrs, Magnetohydrodynamically
-driven compressors,...

...a man of many talents (which of course anyone who
has been paying attention to team 95's robots has known
for a great many years). Well done Dodd.

If you are curious, you can look it up at Delphion.com
yourself.


Joe J.





__________________
This message was archived from an earlier forum system. Some information may have been left out. Start new discussion in the current forums, and refer back to these threads when necessary.
 


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Drivetrain, what did you use? maclaren Technical Discussion 42 15-02-2004 21:09
"Automatic Transmission" Madison Technical Discussion 70 24-11-2003 09:03
how does crab drive work? Soukup Technical Discussion 13 25-04-2003 11:31
To shift or not to shift? sanddrag Technical Discussion 61 15-04-2003 22:56
Best source for gears? Smallparts? drivetrain advice wanted! Frank(Aflak) Technical Discussion 11 10-01-2003 17:22


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 14:55.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi