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What do you think of team 131 CHAOS? Pros/Cons

Posted by Jestin at 03/04/2001 9:29 PM EST


Student on team #131, C.H.A.O.S, from Manchester High School Central and Osram Slyvania/Fleet.



Team 131 CHAOS has done well in the past. winning the new england regional in 2000, and coming in 2nd in nationals that same year. i believe their alliances and them came in 4th. what do you think about them this year>


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impressive balance... but a tactical error

Posted by JVN at 03/05/2001 12:22 AM EST


Student on team #250, Dynamos - Capital District Robotics Team, from Shenendehowa High School and General Electric and Verizon.


In Reply to: What do you think of team 131 CHAOS? Pros/Cons
Posted by Jestin on 03/04/2001 9:29 PM EST:



: Team 131 CHAOS has done well in the past. winning the new england regional in 2000, and
coming in 2nd in nationals that same year. i believe their alliances and them came in 4th. what
do you think about them this year>

hey, we came to UTC and scouted the matches there, even if we didn't compete...
i just popped out the sheet on you guys and we were pretty impressed...
we watched you guys make a great double balance,
but get screwed up by a tactical error of your alliance partners...

after you guys nailed the balance, your partner (who shall remain anonymous)
decided to place a big ball... this was a tragic error... there were only like 34 seconds left... if
they had just run to
the endzone and ended the match you would have scored in the 300+ range... however... by
capping the ball they delayed themselves and lost the time multipliers...
they also knocked you off balance...(at least they capped the goal correctly!)
as a result of this catastrophy you guys
got 46 points.... 300 --> 46... quite the difference huh?

this is the kind of stuff that gives me bad dreams...
strategic errors that could have been avoided
by knowing "when to hold em, and when to fold em"...
i know it is a shot to the ego...but i think
teams should remember that running to the endzone wins matches!!!!
I can't wait till Long Island... it should be interesting to see this firsthand...

~John #250

I've been spending a TON of time on strategy...
after what i saw at UTC i'm doing even more... it's
all about the strategy this year people... leave your ego at the door...

Chaos, you got ripped off on that one






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Re: How do you know?

Posted by Mike Aubry at 03/05/2001 11:36 PM EST


Engineer on team #47, Chiefs, from Pontiac Central and Delphi .


In Reply to: impressive balance... but a tactical error
Posted by JVN on 03/05/2001 12:22 AM EST:




: Chaos, you got ripped off on that one
The most difficult part of this years competition seems to be second guessing the alliance strategic plan when it doesn't quite work out the way it was planned. The team you are speaking about is my team - team 47. The difficult part that everyone (including me) is having this year, revolves around trying to figure out why teams are doing what they are doing. As an audience participant everyone can sit back and judge after the results are known. But, I have learned that it is better to attempt to understand the logic in the attempted failure, before slinging harsh words upon the team that appears to have messed up. You see, the thing is - no one in the audience is priviledged to know before hand, just what the strategy is. We all have to watch as it unfolds, and then we get to judge the stupidity or brilliance with the advantage of seeing the results. Wouldn't it be great if everyone could first try out the strategy to see if the tasks, and timing are feasible, before we run the match! Hindsight is 20/20. This year, I suggest (and am trying very hard to do this myself) that second guessing or backseat driving be absolved - for if it isn't - I predict that it will be the downfall of the FIRST spirit and eventually ruin what over the years has led to wonderful relationships and friendships. This year especially, will try the patience and understanding of many teams - as many teams will fail trying to do what many are sure is a stupid thing, thus ruining the chances of the other 3(or 4) teams in the alliance. Is 6 years of building relationships and friendships really worthy of the second guessing and backstabbing that is now occuring? A piece of advice for ALL the teams that have yet to compeat in a regional, Most teams at first, don't really know what they are capable of when working in a team, and many will find it difficult to adapt. Some will succeed, some will fail! Therefore, Be as compassionate to those that fail, as you are ecstatic with those that succeed. Show some class, be kind - this is the humane part that gracious professionalism can't even be compared to because it's about people and feelings. Hugs of condolance and words of encouragement go alot farther than hurtful accusations and mean spirited actions. Teams that fail when attempting to score high scores, don't fail because they intended too - try and remember that. And the funny part is, when they succeed no one questions the strategy, seems strange to me. This game is all about RISK and REWARD, those that dare to "Go for it", should be prepared for the darts and arrows? - I suggest NOT, if the strategy was previously agreed to by the teams representatives while planning it out. Previous posting, and alot of verbal messages of complete and utter sorrow has already been expressed so I won't go further than that - Thanks, Aztecs and Chaos, and the other alliance partners for giving us the opportunity. It will not be forgotten.



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Gracious Professionalism includes knowing the rule!

Posted by Mike Sklar at 03/06/2001 12:26 PM EST


Engineer on team #21, ComBBAT , from Astronaut H.S. and Titusville H.S. and Brevard Community College and Boeing Company and NASA-KSC.


In Reply to: Re: How do you know?
Posted by Mike Aubry on 03/05/2001 11:36 PM EST:



Mike

We all sympathize with what you are saying. And I agree people should be careful not to judge from the sidelines. And I'm sure knowing the ChiefDelphi team that your logic was sound.

However may people do not understand the game and are making really dumb decisions. Worse yet some teams don't care what points they score or if they win. They just want to exercise their machine and perhaps consider the current competition a practice comp. That stinks in my book!

Mostly people do not understand the importance of time.

Most don't know that a single goal balanced before 30s left = 5x multiplier and is greater than balancing both goals after 15s left (4x multiplier).

Also adding 10 points for a large ball is worth way less than multiplying all points by an additional .5 or 1. People need to understand this and stop leaving so many points on the floor! That's gracious professionalism! Play to win and say nice things about your fellow teams!
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Double-Double-Double-and-a-half or Double-Double-Double

Posted by Joe Johnson at 03/06/2001 1:27 PM EST


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.


In Reply to: Gracious Professionalism includes knowing the rule!
Posted by Mike Sklar on 03/06/2001 12:26 PM EST:



My view is that the name of the game is to get the double-double-double-and-a-half (10X) if you can and go for the double-double-double (8X) if you can't.

As a practical matter, you need to score 25% more points in the 30 seconds between the double-double-double-and-a-half and the double-double-double in order to make it worth playing on for these extra 30 seconds.

If your base score is 40 or above, getting %25 more in 30 seconds is somewhat of a difficulty, so it often does not make sense to play on, though it can make sense if 20 base points are available without risking losing balancing both goals.

Finally, in my opinion, in order to beat the very worthy 520 points that was put up at the UTC Regional, teams will have to either score close to 70 base points with a double-double-double (which I judge to be just inside the realm of possible) or teams will have to go to a double-double-double-and-a-half strategy just as the Gael Force, et. al. did (which I judge to be the more likely scenario).

To break the 600 point barrier, I believe that only the double-double-double-and-a-half will do.

As to 4X vs. 5X, for me, this is all just noise on the signal.

Crack the double-double-double or the double-double-double-and-a-half nut and you have solved the whole problem.

Fail to crack it, and you will be watching others who have play on.

This is the question I think every team should be asking themselves:
How does my team help an alliance get the double-double-double or the double-double-double-and-a-half?

Your answers may scare you.

Just my opinion and I have been wrong before.

Joe J.


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Re: Double-Double-Double-and-a-half or Double-Double-Double

Posted by Raul at 03/06/2001 2:14 PM EST


Engineer on team #111, Wildstang, from Rolling Meadows & Wheeling HS and Motorola.


In Reply to: Double-Double-Double-and-a-half or Double-Double-Double
Posted by Joe Johnson on 03/06/2001 1:27 PM EST:



Good advice as always. So I hope you get to take a ride on the WildSide :-)

Raul


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the need to break 700's

Posted by Ken Leung at 03/06/2001 7:38 PM EST


Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Henry M. Gunn Senior High School.


In Reply to: Double-Double-Double-and-a-half or Double-Double-Double
Posted by Joe Johnson on 03/06/2001 1:27 PM EST:



Your advices are right as always. It cleared a lot of confusion about the priority when choosing alliance partners, IF we are in such position to choose at all¡K

Unfortunately, due to some bet between the Cheesy Poof and the Technokats, the alliance in California will need to break 700¡¦s¡K

You are right, double-double-double or double-double-double-and-a-half is the easier way to get a high score, because there are only limited ways to get scores on the fields. But most important, the time multiplier sounds safer than getting more score. After all, there might be errors during a game.

Usually there will be 3 or 4 robots in the end zone, depends on whether the balancers get the double-double on or off the bridge.

Then two big balls on the goals seem much harder than one, and loading the far goal with small balls is even harder. I am not saying it¡¦s really difficult to achieve such tasks, because most likely they will only require a robot to bringing the near goal to the other side for the big ball, or robot loading small balls into the far goal/bringing the far goal near the human player.

So far, the two regional shows the winning alliance both have three robots in the end zone, one big ball on a goal, and a filled goal of small balls with a close double-double-double-and-a-half. So, any alliance that wants to break or even the 520 with a double-double-double will require at least 13 pts more with the additional 30 seconds¡K well, at least getting one more robot in the end zone sounds possible, but for the extra 3 we are talking about another big ball or small balls, or even the stretcher¡K

There are lots of risks for getting more points in the field, and it depends if teams are willing to try it.

So, if we are picking alliance, we might choose between an alliance of robots that can do couple of things fast for a 10X, or an alliance of robots that can do many things within the time for an 8X. That is, if we are playing everything safe.

But right now, because of the bet, the alliances in California need to do many things AND get a double-double-double-and-a-half, after all, we want the Cheesy Poof to win the bet.



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The 700 point bet.

Posted by Andy Baker at 03/06/2001 10:03 PM EST


Engineer on team #45, TechnoKats, from Kokomo High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.


In Reply to: the need to break 700's
Posted by Ken Leung on 03/06/2001 7:38 PM EST:



Yep, Jason Morrella and I have a bit of a wager... Actually two bets:

1. If there is a 700 point round at a California regional, then I buy him dinner. If not, then I'm getting a lobster dinner.

2. There is another bet for another meal: Whichever Regional has a higher winning score in the finals between this weekend's W. Michigan Regional, and the LA Regional... the loser buys dinner again.

Anyway, that's the bet. So, I'll be cheering for my midwesterners this weekend, that's for sure.

Two dinners... I better find a bigger belt.

Andy B.



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Dr Joe weighs in...

Posted by Joe Johnson at 03/06/2001 10:15 PM EST


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.


In Reply to: The 700 point bet.
Posted by Andy Baker on 03/06/2001 10:03 PM EST:



700 points is safe at least until week 4 or the Nationals.

Western Michigan will top LA.

No bets, just getting my marker down so that I can say
I told you so ;-)

Joe J.

P.S. I think my bet concerning a robot going under or
over the bar in the match that the winning alliance
scores its highest score is looking pretty safe -- but,
it ain't over yet I suppose. Let's see what Bill,
Brian and Team Hammond have in store for us. Time will
tell...



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Re: Dr Joe weighs in...

Posted by Stephen Riley at 03/07/2001 12:57 AM EST


Engineer on team #419, RAMBOTS, from Wentworth Institute of Technology and Umass/BCHigh and Mathsoft, Solidworks, and NASA.


In Reply to: Dr Joe weighs in...
Posted by Joe Johnson on 03/06/2001 10:15 PM EST:



i'm still in on this bet with you, especially after UTC i say even more that limbo bots are gonna be the way to go

Steve
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you've got the wrong man...

Posted by Joe Johnson at 03/07/2001 6:31 AM EST


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.


In Reply to: Re: Dr Joe weighs in...
Posted by Stephen Riley on 03/07/2001 12:57 AM EST:



Steve,

As you may or may not recall, I am the one taking the side of the limbo bots / huddler bots.

Car Nack was the predictor of over the bridge being the way life settles out. Erin (bless her -- she never quite accepted the bet) pushed it for a while and then others finally took my bet for a case of Mt. Dew or maybe it was pizza for the whole team -- can't recall especially since I won't be the one paying out ;-)

Limbo -- today, tomorrow, forever!

Joe J.


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not pizza

Posted by Ken Leung at 03/07/2001 7:06 AM EST


Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Henry M. Gunn Senior High School.


In Reply to: you've got the wrong man...
Posted by Joe Johnson on 03/07/2001 6:31 AM EST:



r maybe it was pizza for the whole team

Hey! Don't bring teams into this.

It will be a case of Mt. Dew...

Fresh from California...

Hand Delivered...

By the way, the winning alliance probably will have a limbo robot... but when they score their highest match, that limbo robot might have a chance of sitting on the stretcher... ;-)


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Re: Dr Joe weighs in...

Posted by mike oleary at 03/07/2001 10:02 PM EST


Student on team #419, rambots, from bc high and sponsors are overrated..go pocket-change robots!!!.


In Reply to: Re: Dr Joe weighs in...
Posted by Stephen Riley on 03/07/2001 12:57 AM EST:



go limbo bots...
didnt me and corliss and kostkas and all of us keep on saying exactly that back in week 1 when we were tossing around ideas? just making sure that that wasnt my imagination
even idiots get lucky every so often and have a good idea...speaking of which: why do zambonis have headlights?

: i'm still in on this bet with you, especially after UTC i say even more that limbo bots are gonna be the way to go

: Steve


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How old is the bet?

Posted by P.J. Baker at 03/06/2001 10:37 PM EST


Engineer on team #177, Bobcat Robotics, from South Windsor High School and International Fuel Cells.


In Reply to: The 700 point bet.
Posted by Andy Baker on 03/06/2001 10:03 PM EST:



Did you make those bets before or after last weekends regionals?

I'd feel pretty safe about the 700 pts. Andy, but the other is a toss up.

700 will be tough anywhere (although Dean told me on Saturday that he expects it for nationals). The tourney format might keep the essential pieces of a 700 pt alliance from actually coming together.

Good Luck.

P.J.
Team #177



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After!

Posted by Andy Baker at 03/06/2001 10:51 PM EST


Engineer on team #45, TechnoKats, from Kokomo High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.


In Reply to: How old is the bet?
Posted by P.J. Baker on 03/06/2001 10:37 PM EST:



: Did you make those bets before or after last weekends regionals?

We were in the Tigerbolt chat room late Sunday night, and there were all of these Cali teams in there, spoutin' off. And they all thought that a 700 point match was not a big problem. Then the bet came about.

Who knows, seeing a 700 point match may be worth a Big Mac for Jason!

Andy B.


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