How should we react to posts?

[IndySam]

Here is a post by a student who doesn't understand the purpose of FIRST. As a community how should we react to this post?

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=102609

I understand the immediate reaction is to go on the attack and slam him but what purpose does that serve? Sure maybe he deserves it but wouldn't it be better to just have a mod delete the thread and send the offender a note explaining why his actions are inappropriate and maybe help him learn something?

Who knows, with a little coaching maybe he could become a valuable member of the community. Lets face it, there's almost zero chance of that happening now.

I must say Cory that your comments when closing the thread are absolutely inappropriate. You are basically saying OK boys lets get this guy. I think you deserve as many red dots for that comment as the OP.

[wireties]

It sounds like the student had a poor experience somewhere along the line. I also advocate contacting him and giving a chance to post a "sorry, I didn't understand" message and delete the entire thread.

[Tristan Lall]

I'd avoid deleting the thread unless the original poster really wants it deleted, and the ChiefDelphi community seems to agree. There's no defamation there, especially not after the link was redacted.

I definitely think the person deserves the opportunity to respond (civilly and thoughtfully) to those who criticized them. A locked thread doesn't serve that purpose very well, so I suggest they post here instead. (If they want nothing more than to throw insults, they'll just get banned.)

[Cory]

If you want to be a jerk on the internet I don't think you should be shielded from the consequences of acting like a jerk. I see nothing wrong with what I posted and stand by it. My intent was not to ostracize the kid or leave it there so people can 'blacklist' the kid or team. I simply think that in the real world if you say something you don't get to take it back.

I'll abide by that myself. If some think my posts are inappropriate and rude, that's fine. They were my words and I won't hide from them.

[CidTeach]

I'm with Cory,
i tell my students to "man-up" all the time. All that means is stand up the the consequences regardless of how severe. If you are upset about something, talk it out and come to a resolution - after all, that is what we are here to do. Help young ones grow into solution finding useful people. If you do not know how to act, personally and professionally you will learn by fire.

No one forgets the first time they bust up their finger in the shop, I'm sure this similar analogy applies.

[wireties]

Originally Posted by CidTeach

No one forgets the first time they bust up their finger in the shop, I'm sure this similar analogy applies.

If a student busts a finger after being given safety instructions, I totally agree. If this is strike 2 for this student, I also agree. Was that the case here? Did the student have any idea what FIRST is about? Hard to know I reckon...

I suppose the older (and hopefully wiser) one gets the more tolerant - right up to the point where one is being ignored or taken advantage of - then the hammer must come down, maybe literally ;o)

[MrBasse]

I don't know if it is fair to call him a jerk right away... I think what we have here is a something that we have all been, a kid. He saw what he views as a problem, which I think we can all agree can be a problem to different degrees with some teams, and his method for recognizing it was good until he went the extra step and crossed a line, or two, well maybe three.

I also don't think that it is fair for us to say that he doesn't understand FIRST either. Personally I feel that a kid will be more inspired (the true goal of FIRST) by learning how to make something and then actually making it, rather than just learning the process by watching someone else make it or by sending it off to a shop to be made. Does that mean that sending something out to be laser cut is a bad practice? Of course not, it happens in industry all the time. But does sending it out directly involve the students in the process from start to finish? More often than not I doubt it.

I am not saying I agree with his method, or his idea completely, but I can see where he is coming from and I feel that it is a legit concern that should be addressed in a friendly and compassionate way. Maybe by reminding him that the issue could be handled differently and seeing how he responds to the idea, rather than immediately saying that he is reported for doing something wrong.

We still have to remember that everyone makes mistakes, sometimes the results are just more visible and affect more than just the individuals involved...

Originally Posted by MrBasse

We still have to remember that everyone makes mistakes, sometimes the results are just more visible and affect more than just the individuals involved...

Well said Mr. Basse. Everyone makes mistakes, in fact everyone still makes mistakes, although they occur less frequently with experience, something us who are somewhat new to FRC can lack sometimes. If it were a 30 year old mentor, then the results/reactions would have been very different. But this is a kid, probably around 16 years old. If a students gets something wrong in class, the more experienced and educated teachers teach them how to do it right.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by MrBasse

I don't know if it is fair to call him a jerk right away... I think what we have here is a something that we have all been, a kid. He saw what he views as a problem, which I think we can all agree can be a problem to different degrees with some teams, and his method for recognizing it was good until he went the extra step and crossed a line, or two, well maybe three.

This is hardly a consensus. I used to think that there was a problem with this but came to realize a long time ago that it doesn't matter how anyone else runs their team, so long as it works for them.

This is an argument that has been rehashed a hundred times on Chief. Go find comments made by Dean, Woodie, Dave, etc. All of them have said in different ways that a huge part of FIRST is mentor involvement with students. Nowhere will you find guidelines saying what level is inappropriate.

[SousVide]

As many have said, this has been hashed and rehashed over again. The debate won't die, except the results... that is when students see a wicked awesome robot built by mentors - it doth not inspire nor encourage.

There are Mentoring guidelines. I like section 8 a lot:

http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles...ng%20Guide.pdf

I Do, You Watch
I Do, You Help
You Do, I Help
You Do, I Watch

I come from a world of FLL, which is still FIRST. In FLL, students do *all* of the work - emphasis mine. Mentors and Coaches encourage and provide the process; keep everything including sanity in check. In FRC, we encourage the engineering process, learn the technical knowledge, and at some point, we as mentors do need to start turning the keys over to the students - as much as they can manage. The idea behind FIRST isn't just to inspire, it is to build leaders... They can't learn to be leaders having to take the backseat the entire time.

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by SousVide

that is when students see a wicked awesome robot built by mentors - it doth not inspire nor encourage.

Watching 111 take on 71 (two teams who I thought were mentor built at the time*) in the finals of my first regional was pretty inspiring for me.

*I obviously no longer think that now.

[Akash Rastogi]

I would be on Cory's side on this one.

I've said plenty of stupid things on CD since I started using it. Having those stupid posts still exist for all to see (especially for me to see) is a reminder to correct such actions in the future.

+$0.02

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

I would be on Cory's side on this one.

I've said plenty of stupid things on CD since I started using it. Having those stupid posts still exist for all to see (especially for me to see) is a reminder to correct such actions in the future.

+$0.02

I agree with Cory that keeping it there reminds the user of their mistake, however we could be a bit lenient towards the OP, since it was his/her first offense. If it was a repeating problem, I'd say put it in bold letters for everyone to see, but it's not.

If/when I say something stupid, I expect it to stay there since I don't learn anything if it disappears, but only because I've been here for about a year now, and I've said stupid things before.

[Alan Anderson]

I think the appropriate way to respond to a post attacking mentors for building their team's robots for the students is to simply invite the author to visit one of the teams being accused and see what really goes on.

[SousVide]

it's always inspiring to see professionals do work - obviously, I am talking about inspiring for the students to see what they can do *on their own skills*... Sure, it's great to see NASA engineers build the space shuttle - that's not what I am getting at...

I build awesome rockets too, on my own time and in my own shop - when I am mentoring, I am trying my damnest to have the students learn to be able to do it... not turn it into a sweatshop for my own enjoyment - but that's just me... I'll have to admit that it is a difficult line to draw, it's the 20th hour and nothing works - what then. I can't say that I understand other's in their own situation. My opinion is that the students get the robot commensurate with their own skills and knowledge... It's terrific that I know how to put one together, but that's not the idea...

I always congratulate other teams for their awesome job... and if it turns out to be a space shuttle job - that's great too, I'd still admire it for what it is... But just too bad for some of these students who do get the short end... FWIW, I haven't seen an awesome robot without the students behind it yet... Even if I see one, I promise not to point it out

Originally Posted by XaulZan11

Watching 111 take on 71 (two teams who I thought were mentor built at the time*) in the finals of my first regional was pretty inspiring for me.

*I obviously no longer think that now.