Balls lodged under bridges??

[Peggy Painter]

After our team played at the KC regional this weekend one of the questions I have is:

Are there any reliable and simple methods to deal with balls under the bridges?

I saw robots with great shooters/ball launchers and fairly good bridge & balance manipulators.

Once balls went under a bridge things got interesting. What have you seen at other regionals?

Peggy
Bit by Bit 4-H Robotics/FIRST FRC Team #3784

2012 winners of GKC Regional thanks to Team 16 and Team 1986
2011 winners with Team 525 and Team 1730 @ GKC Regional
2011 High seed rookies @ GKC Regional
2011 Gracious Professionalism @ GKC Regional

[littlejimmy1058]

I attended the BAE Systems GSR regional in New Hampshire. We saw balls get under the bridge and teams lose balance points because of it. I think a simple sweeping bar attached to the front of the robot should do it. Of course this is my first year (pardon the pun) so........

Originally Posted by littlejimmy1058

I attended the BAE Systems GSR regional in New Hampshire. We saw balls get under the bridge and teams lose balance points because of it. I think a simple sweeping bar attached to the front of the robot should do it. Of course this is my first year (pardon the pun) so........

The problem with a sweeping bar is the 14" appendage rule. There needs to be a change to the field design. The ramps that were added under the bridge after week 0 do absolutely nothing. One idea I had was adding an accordion style skirt under the bridges. They would be inset a bit so as not to interfere with robots while the bridges were down.

I really think the GDC or whoever does field design needs to look at this and address it as a massive problem with the game.

[johnmaguire2013]

Originally Posted by tanmaker

The problem with a sweeping bar is the 14" appendage rule. There needs to be a change to the field design. The ramps that were added under the bridge after week 0 do absolutely nothing. One idea I had was adding an accordion style skirt under the bridges. They would be inset a bit so as not to interfere with robots while the bridges were down.

I really think the GDC or whoever does field design needs to look at this and address it as a massive problem with the game.

Actually, if you watch this, you will notice that the ball deflector is designed to only work when the bridge is pushed the other way.

[MarcD79]

What everybody is missing here is that this is real life. Nothing is perfect, things are always changing. Get used to it & flow with it & you will progress in life without too many hitches. Yes the balls get stuck under the ramp, but that is why teams have to rethink their strategy. Think to yourselves, is there a ball underneath? Will I need to tip the ramp away from our robot 1st? Don't bash FIRST because it's not a perfect game. Every game played has had variables. Embrace it & get creative with fun mixed in.

[Jaxom]

Originally Posted by tanmaker

I really think the GDC or whoever does field design needs to look at this and address it as a massive problem with the game.

I disagree. While the balls getting under the bridges are a pain, they pose the same problem to every team. I saw several different ways teams at KC removed them, and at least one time I saw a robot get up on the bridge even though there was a ball on their side of the bridge. It kind of hopped up in a couple of stages.

I think the bigger problem is knowing that the balls are there, and where they are. That's another engineering problem, and I expect to see some different ways to solve it by the time we get to the St. Louis regional in week 4.

There's also the non-engineering part of the problem. Such as spending too much time trying to remove a ball when there's a better alternative like going to the other side. There were also times where it really wasn't even necessary to use the bridge.

I'd hate to see the field changed at this point. All of the teams have the same problem. I'd much rather see FIRST address the problems associated with volunteer food (seriously -- no filet mignon & lobster?) and inspector compensation. Are we really supposed to believe that working with great teams of both students & mentors is all we get out of this?

[johnmaguire2013]

Originally Posted by Jaxom

I disagree. While the balls getting under the bridges are a pain, they pose the same problem to every team. I saw several different ways teams at KC removed them, and at least one time I saw a robot get up on the bridge even though there was a ball on their side of the bridge. It kind of hopped up in a couple of stages.

I think the bigger problem is knowing that the balls are there, and where they are. That's another engineering problem, and I expect to see some different ways to solve it by the time we get to the St. Louis regional in week 4.

There's also the non-engineering part of the problem. Such as spending too much time trying to remove a ball when there's a better alternative like going to the other side. There were also times where it really wasn't even necessary to use the bridge.

I'd hate to see the field changed at this point. All of the teams have the same problem. I'd much rather see FIRST address the problems associated with volunteer food (seriously -- no filet mignon & lobster?) and inspector compensation. Are we really supposed to believe that working with great teams of both students & mentors is all we get out of this?

They don't exactly pose the same problem to every team though. There are situations where it is actually impossible to get a ball out from under the bridge, and it happens to only one team that match. That match could be a tie-breaker finalist match.

[littlejimmy1058]

I saw some teams try to get onto the bridge and get over the balls too. It is just one of those things that makes FIRST so much fun to participate in! If there is a ball under the bridge, well.... what will you do?

[BrendanB]

The trick is that teams who lift the bridge are typically on the same side as the direction that the balls come out which means they hit the robots bumper and go right back under or are stopped right at the bottom of the lexan plates and still block the bridge. Our team has a full width pickup and we started to just ram the pickup under the bridge and clear all the balls out in a few seconds.

On idea is if you are on the same side as the balls lift the bridge and quickly drive back so the balls can roll out. Teams aren't giving the balls the time they need to roll out.

[JPM0887]

Our bridge mechanism was only on the corner of our robot, so many times we just knocked the balls off the bridge from an angle without being directly behind it.

[Alpha Beta]

Originally Posted by littlejimmy1058

I saw some teams try to get onto the bridge and get over the balls too. It is just one of those things that makes FIRST so much fun to participate in! If there is a ball under the bridge, well.... what will you do?

You crush them with the bridge and keep going.

Video (Match 91): http://www.more.net/content/2012-qualification-matches

At 2:38 in the video you can see that 967 is dealing with a ball under the bridge. Eventually they give up and go to the other side where they knock a ball into the other side of the bridge as well. 1986 come to the original side and crushes the ball with the bridge while climbing on. We do have to stay towards that end to keep the ball from preventing 967 climbing on after us.

PS. This was the exciting match where all 6 robots end up balanced, 2 on each bridge. Blue has a 19 point lead when red completes the double balance to take a temporary lead. Blue counters with their own double balance (even though only a single was needed) for the victory. Meanwhile the co-op bridge is blocked on both ends by ball adding to the drama previously described.

[Jaxom]

Originally Posted by johnmaguire2013

They don't exactly pose the same problem to every team though. There are situations where it is actually impossible to get a ball out from under the bridge, and it happens to only one team that match. That match could be a tie-breaker finalist match.

The field & the rules are the same for everyone. Bad Things happen; where on the spectrum of those things would you like to draw a line that says "change the rules after week one" is right thing to do?

[Swampdude]

Watch team 231 put a ball under the red bridge. Then 2936 spends the next 10 seconds trying to get it out for the triple balance.

[waialua359]

This whole ball being stuck issue is something I wished FIRST would have either fixed or noted in an official update with warnings to teams on just how severe it is. Reading or hearing about it from others or even on CD, isnt something that all teams hear.

It doesnt matter if all teams have the same problem at any of the events.
Not all of the teams have the same solutions/designs to remedy the situation if it were to occur.

[Wayne Doenges]

At the Smoky Mountains Regional the referees alowed one member, from each alliance, to go to the side of the field and signal their teammates if there was a ball under the bridge.
I know this doesn't eliminate the ball but at least you know it's there.