Go to Post Will we finally get to play music on our robots for once!? - Hitchhiker 42 [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Technical > Electrical
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-04-2012, 19:04
nathan.chupp's Avatar
nathan.chupp nathan.chupp is offline
Registered User
AKA: CupCake
FRC #3509 (Fallout)
Team Role: RoboCoach
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Edwardsburg
Posts: 14
nathan.chupp is an unknown quantity at this point
Short circuit CIM

The brush holders are supported by a phenolic disc that is screwed to the aluminum end cover. The center of the disc has a hole that overlays the bearing boss. Clearance between the boss and the hole is tight, maybe one millimeter. Carbon dust (from the brush) is deposited liberally on the disc and the boss, especially on the insider diameter of the disc. When the brush moves outward, as it will when the commutator is inserted between the brushes, it tilts slightly toward the phenolic disc and contacts the carbon dust. Maybe this is the cause of the short to case -- not a very low impedance connection, but enough to (1) cause electrical noise on your robot's control system, and (2) get worse at higher electrical frequency.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	noname.gif
Views:	197
Size:	80.8 KB
ID:	12625  Click image for larger version

Name:	noname2.gif
Views:	224
Size:	155.2 KB
ID:	12626  
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-04-2012, 20:15
Unsung FIRST Hero
Al Skierkiewicz Al Skierkiewicz is offline
Broadcast Eng/Chief Robot Inspector
AKA: Big Al WFFA 2005
FRC #0111 (WildStang)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Wheeling, IL
Posts: 10,770
Al Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Short circuit CIM

yes, yours are clean. We have measured 7 k before cleaning
__________________
Good Luck All. Learn something new, everyday!
Al
WB9UVJ
www.wildstang.org
________________________
Storming the Tower since 1996.
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-04-2012, 08:15
nathan.chupp's Avatar
nathan.chupp nathan.chupp is offline
Registered User
AKA: CupCake
FRC #3509 (Fallout)
Team Role: RoboCoach
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Edwardsburg
Posts: 14
nathan.chupp is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Short circuit CIM

When Continuing the search for root cause, Richard disassembled another CIM motor, so He could examine that one and Mine side-by-side.

The image below shows a potentially significant difference -- mine is on the left, and the other CIM is on the right. The copper braid brush pigtail connected to the red motor lead is slightly longer on your motor than it is on the other. In the position shown, that braid can contact the inside of the motor case. He reassembled just after taking this picture and measured a short between red motor lead and case.

Short circuit between brush braid and case seems more likely than carbon dust (per my earlier email) to explain what you saw at MSC. Dust will accumulate in all CIMs eventually, but probably only a very few CIMs are built with long brush braids?
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-04-2012, 17:28
Unsung FIRST Hero
Al Skierkiewicz Al Skierkiewicz is offline
Broadcast Eng/Chief Robot Inspector
AKA: Big Al WFFA 2005
FRC #0111 (WildStang)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Wheeling, IL
Posts: 10,770
Al Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Short circuit CIM

Nathan, It sure looks like the one braid is improperly terminated. It should not touch the motor case when assembled. Either it was terminated on the wrong side of the lug or the braid was the wrong length to begin with. This is really the first I have heard of a hard short on a CIM that did not occur due to mishandling. I have seen a number of them where the armature was cooked and melted all the insulation.
__________________
Good Luck All. Learn something new, everyday!
Al
WB9UVJ
www.wildstang.org
________________________
Storming the Tower since 1996.
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-04-2012, 18:57
Richard Wallace's Avatar
Richard Wallace Richard Wallace is online now
I live for the details.
FRC #3620 (Average Joes)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Southwestern Michigan
Posts: 3,647
Richard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Short circuit CIM

Al, I still have Nathan's CIM in my car -- keep meaning to return it but have not made it down his way yet.

I am on my way to St. Louis now, and will report for duty early tomorrow afternoon. After we get all the robots inspected, I will bring this motor in for you to examine.
__________________
Richard Wallace

Mentor since 2011 for FRC 3620 Average Joes (St. Joseph, Michigan)
Mentor 2002-10 for FRC 931 Perpetual Chaos (St. Louis, Missouri)
since 2003

I believe in intuition and inspiration. Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited, whereas imagination embraces the entire world, stimulating progress, giving birth to evolution. It is, strictly speaking, a real factor in scientific research.
(Cosmic Religion : With Other Opinions and Aphorisms (1931) by Albert Einstein, p. 97)
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-04-2012, 23:10
Unsung FIRST Hero
Al Skierkiewicz Al Skierkiewicz is offline
Broadcast Eng/Chief Robot Inspector
AKA: Big Al WFFA 2005
FRC #0111 (WildStang)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Wheeling, IL
Posts: 10,770
Al Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Short circuit CIM

Cool!
__________________
Good Luck All. Learn something new, everyday!
Al
WB9UVJ
www.wildstang.org
________________________
Storming the Tower since 1996.
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:12.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi