The communication tides are shifting...

[DominickC]

After today's lack-luster performance from the FMS on the Einstein field, many people are beginning to lose faith in the FMS and current mode of communication. I happen to be one of them. Problems began at Regionals, and were exacerbated on Einstein. Common sense says that if a robot and DS ran fine in Match 1, if nothing changed between Match 1 and Match 2, the robot should preform just as well in Match 2. Unfortunately, this was not the case.

It might be time for FIRST to shift from their current setup to a more robust and reliable way for robots to talk with the field and DS's.

What say you?

[Racer26]

Never should have moved away from the IFI system.

The current cRIO is a solution akin to using a sledgehammer to drive a finishing nail. Sure, it works, but its clunky.

[DominickC]

Wasn't the cRIO initially designed to be used in an industrial setting as a data logger?

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by DominickC

Wasn't the cRIO initially designed to be used in an industrial setting as a data logger?

It's a real time industrial control system. It's plenty hardy enough for what we're doing and the treatment we're giving it. I'm seriously doubting this is a hardware problem with the cRIO. It's possible it's a software problem with the cRIO or FMS, but the most likely answer really seems to revolve around our consumer-grade WiFi radios. The fact that a firmware change on the router causes massive communication problems is pretty troubling, really.

/sarcasm/ Yes, let's get rid of the crio and never again using vision processing or any of the cool advanced things introduced with it. /sarcasm/

The crio isn't the problem. It's the connection with the field.

I'm all for a new piece of equipment that better connects to field, but first we have to find one. Something we implement in our team is "don't shoot down an idea unless you have a better one".

So, get your heads a cracken and those brains a moven. Let's find us a new bridge.

[Chexposito]

Originally Posted by SuperNerd256

/sarcasm/ Yes, let's get rid of the crio and never again using vision processing or any of the cool advanced things introduced with it. /sarcasm/

The crio isn't the problem. It's the connection with the field.

I'm all for a new piece of equipment that better connects to field, but first we have to find one. Something we implement in our team is "don't shoot down an idea unless you have a better one".

So, get your heads a cracken and those brains a moven. Let's find us a new bridge.

Not sure how your team is doing vision processing... Most teams use the laptop for that to not reduce robot performance... Also, there was vision processing before the C-RIO. Look at Rack 'n Roll (2007)...

Anyways, C-RIO needs to stay. The kit needs some updates with more safety protection (built in) for the thousands of dollars in electronics we have. WI-FI will stay. It's secure and quick. The current problems lie within the field system. Also, the paranoia about wireless work in the pits needs to stop. If the system can't handle wireless pit work, then they are doing something wrong...

[Steven Donow]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

It's a real time industrial control system. It's plenty hardy enough for what we're doing and the treatment we're giving it. I'm seriously doubting this is a hardware problem with the cRIO. It's possible it's a software problem with the cRIO or FMS, but the most likely answer really seems to revolve around our consumer-grade WiFi radios. The fact that a firmware change on the router causes massive communication problems is pretty troubling, really.

Exactly. We're having data processed on an industrial-grade controller with a consumer-grade transmitter. That's the problem I see. I think the best we can hope for right now is that next year in the KOP we get a nice new radio that's much much more powerful than the one we currently have.

[DominickC]

If the issue actually does stem from our radios, why was this issue not uncovered in 2009 when FIRST switched over to TCP/IP?

[shawnz]

Originally Posted by DominickC

If the issue actually does stem from our radios, why was this issue not uncovered in 2009 when FIRST switched over to TCP/IP?

Well, aside from the fact that different wireless bridges were used in 2009, the problem may represent a more complete usage of the platform by teams now than there was then.

[efoote868]

I think we need find a radio supplier that will show up at each of the competitions to help us through our troubles.

Also, there needs to be a better way to diagnose the entire system. Event logging in the radios would help.

[steelerborn]

I don't know much about the communications part and the FMS, I am just a CAD and Strategy mentor, but FIRST team 1671 The Buchanan Bird Brains have ran 3 years using the C-rio and not having 1 single dead match in 67 matches (not including Thursday where we probably played 10 matches there and also had no Comm issues), through 4 regionals and a national event. So it is hard for me to believe that this comes down to the field and does not have anything to do with the bot itself. Something on the bot must be causing this as well.

[RyanN]

I'm interested in the outcome in all of this. The way it is all described appears to be the same issues we had in Bayou. Connectivity issues without any reason that is simply blamed on the robot.

[MarkoRamius1086]

I do have to say a few small points, for what little it is worth. I worked as a Robot Inspector at both Virginia and North Carolina, and at the latter we had one particular culprit, that while it was a brilliant system, the implimentation to begin with was causing lag.

We were looking at the FMS data in realtime and interfacing with the teams to help solve problems (to my knowledge every issue we had was either related to robot code, low batteries due to the power shutdown during the night, and a few lose connections... no FMS issues). The one team that was initially causing lag had three cameras streaming at an extremely high refresh rate. They toned it down to an acceptable rate as soon as they were informed it was causing lag not only with their bot, but with other robots on the field.

These bandwidth issues seemed to cause lag, not any kind of complete and total interference with a single robot (ie. Red1). Feel free to correct me at any point in time, but those were my observations from behind the Pilot's seat.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by steelerborn

I don't know much about the communications part and the FMS, I am just a CAD and Strategy mentor, but FIRST team 1671 The Buchanan Bird Brains have ran 3 years using the C-rio and not having 1 single dead match in 67 matches (not including Thursday where we probably played 10 matches there and also had no Comm issues), through 4 regionals and a national event. So it is hard for me to believe that this comes down to the field and does not have anything to do with the bot itself. Something on the bot must be causing this as well.

It's obvious that something about the robot is causing this. 118 and its alliance mates worked on Newton. 118 was the only Newton team that didn't work on Einstein. Obviously there's something different about 118. Telling a team WHY their robot is having a problem is helpful. Telling a team that their robot is having a problem isn't. The whole problem here is that FTAs are basically saying "Huh, your robot doesn't seem to work on this field." And then dusting their hands and walking off.

No, it's not quite that bad. Yes, there's a large list of suggestions to go through first, but 364, 118, and others have certainly done all those things. Once you're through that list, you're left with a broken robot and zero help or ideas.

[alschnelle]

Originally Posted by efoote868

I think we need find a radio supplier that will show up at each of the competitions to help us through our troubles.

If we just had people from each of the robot communication companies, it would probably help a lot since they would probably know more about their product than we do.