Application To Join A Team

[JustAThought]

Today, my girlfriend's little brother went to inquire about joining a FIRST Robotics Team. When he talked to the sponsor, he was informed there was an application to be filled out and turned in by June 6th.

I personally have no problem in having an application for statistical use or to keep a students goals for themselves documented. However, when I was shown the application, I was quickly appalled by what I saw.

The application was 6 pages long, the first three talking about the teams regulations and the application process. One of the lines read,"You will be contacted by email if you are selected to join our team." This is what began my investigation deeper into the application. No student, under any circumstance, should EVER be denied a chance to be on a FIRST robotics team. I thought that was the point of FIRST, to spread the STEM fields to the youth of our country, not just those who you think keep the image of your team you want.

I decided to keep reading, to see if it was just a misunderstanding. I was quickly reassured that my initial reading was, indeed, correct. The teams then began to list reasons why you can be dismissed from the team. Behavioural and grades were two of the things on there. This is expected on any team or organization in an academic environment. Then it began to list certain things such as being involved in other sports that may cut into the teams schedule, not being able to make it to summer training sessions, missing a single fundraiser. The list then went on and on. I was stunned that a team could have the audacity to deny a child who has other interests. During my involvement with FIRST as a student, I played golf as well. To think I could have been cut from my team simply because I wanted to do other things is simply unacceptable.

Another reason for termination, not being able to stay the entire session after school during build season. As a mentor now, I completely understand when kids have to leave early. Granted, sometimes it can become tedious, however I would never remove one of my kids from the team because they could not stay the entire time. Most of the time, they don't want to leave but they must. To punish a child because of their parents or prior obligation is a slap in the face to FIRST. Which brings me to my next point, the parent's section of the application. The parents section pretty much asks,"How much time are you willing to take out of your life so your kid can join our team?" I grew up with a single mom, who worked full time, normally over 40 hours a week, sometimes even two jobs. She couldn't be involved with the team as much the application would of liked. Why should a student, who wants to learn, be denied access onto the team because they have a hard working parent? I now work 40 hours a week myself, on top of Undergraduate Research and coaching Tee Ball, I can see where helping my team is becoming more and more difficult. But for a child to be denied because of that, is simply ungracious.

Finally, the fees. On our team, if you want to go to an event, you paid your way. Either through fundraising or out of pocket. The choice was yours. If the team wanted something in specific, we did a fundraiser for it. These techniques teach kids a good work ethic. However, a team fee does not. In a public school, how dare you put a fee on joining an EDUCATIONAL organization. The kids on your team are NOT I repeat are NOT a fundraiser. To exploit them for more money is simply outlandish. Children should have the opportunity to further their education in high school, middle school, etc tax free. No team has the right to turn down a child who is seeking out a better education for themselves because they can't pay a fee, or because they can't stay the entire time during build season or any other similar reason. If they are willing to work hard for the team, it should be left at that.

So I want to know, what is your views on team application and the refusal of team members?

P.S. No, I will not release the team that I am affiliated with this OR the team who created the application that sparked this thread.

[avanboekel]

There is a point where a team could become too large. On a team of 50+, it gets to where extra people being around doing nothing becomes a distraction to the others who are working. IMO, that's why smaller teams like 1114 do so well. But you are right, it is sad when kids have to be turned away from a team like that.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by JustAThought

On our team

That's great for your team, but not all teams are the same, and all rules and regulations have their story and reasoning behind them. Every team has some rule or regulation that another team or person may find "outlandish," but every team has it's own unique situation that these regulations are put in place for, usually based on past experiences.

I don't see how we can answer the questions you have posted since we aren't the people who made the application. Instead of complaining about the application questions on here, why not ask the team directly?

[JustAThought]

The point I am trying to make is that kids should not be turned away from FIRST. I have had multiple people I know go through the same thing, and it has now finally got me to the point of wondering,"Why?"

Our mission is to inspire young people to be science and technology leaders, by engaging them in exciting mentor-based programs that build science, engineering and technology skills, that inspire innovation, and that foster well-rounded life capabilities including self-confidence, communication, and leadership.

Above is the mission statement that is posted on the FIRST website. If you notice, self-confidence is involved in it. I don't know about you, but being turned down from a team is not that great at building self-confidence.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by JustAThought

The point I am trying to make is that kids should not be turned away from FIRST. I have had multiple people I know go through the same thing, and it has now finally got me to the point of wondering,"Why?"

Our mission is to inspire young people to be science and technology leaders, by engaging them in exciting mentor-based programs that build science, engineering and technology skills, that inspire innovation, and that foster well-rounded life capabilities including self-confidence, communication, and leadership.

Above is the mission statement that is posted on the FIRST website. If you notice, self-confidence is involved in it. I don't know about you, but being turned down from a team is not that great at building self-confidence.

Are you reading these posts before replying?

As Andrew said, teams put these rules and applications in place to provide as good of a program as they are able to and still be effective.

"to ensure a quality experience for the students that are part of the team"

Trust me, no team eagerly waits to cut students down in order to laugh in their faces. They do it to create a strong, sustainable program and to run a team to the best of their abilities.

[Garrett.d.w]

Originally Posted by JustAThought

I have had multiple people I know go through the same thing, and it has now finally got me to the point of wondering,"Why?"

The answer to your question will very team by team. Each team is in a unique set of circumstances which dictates the policies of said team. If you feel strongly about this, then I suggest that you investigate this further. You will find that your opinion will evolve as you learn more.

Never judge a book by it's cover. Right now (with the information given in this thread) it looks like you have just scratched the surface. Talk to the team leadership and ask politely, without criticism, the reasons for their application policy. You may learn something


PS: Thank you for being considerate and not sharing the team's number.

[JustAThought]

I will, after this post, refrain from further comments.

I have seen through these posts that most people only wish to find reasons why to turn kids down. To me, it is sad. FIRST saved my life, if it wasn't for FIRST, I would have no future. I did not want to do this anonymously, however I did not want my views reflected as my teams views. They have no idea I posted this, nor will they ever know it was me.

My experience at FIRST has shown me the power it has on kids. If you get them involved in something they like, they will never let it go. I can see that has been forgotten. It is rather disappointing not to see more people like the leadership I had growing up in this organization. Leaders who were willing to find ways to make deals and work with the kids. We have plans for if the entire school were to join, and it would keep them all engaged.

To Chief Delphi, I bid you a fair well. I hope that one day, we will find a way to give every kid who wants to be a FIRST member to be a FIRST member and an application will only be used to show progress. Until then, I will be working with my team to continue recruiting and growing our team. No matter how large it gets, we will ALWAYS have room for them in our family.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by JustAThought

Perhaps I am just another student, who came from a poor school, who saw something so amazing that I wanted everyone in this nation to be involved in, then I saw teams telling kids they can't join and that is what provoked it. I know my team, no matter the size, will never turn down students. We will continue to embrace them as they come and do whatever it is we must to accommodate the new demand.

I wish I could do this, I worked with an inner city team for years and saw the impact FIRST had on those students. However, there comes a point where the ratio is simply too low (mentor:student) to ensure safety for everyone involved.

[quote=JustAThought;1169945]Removal from a team because of inactivity is one thing, however, removal because you cannot be there the entire time is a completely different matter.
[\Quote]
Not at all, if I have 50 students and can only accept 25 but 12 of them know they can't be there but half the meetings they should not take spots away from the ones who can dedicate the full time. I think most of this comes down to simply informing students that it is a time commitment. However, I do agree with you that it is a little extreme. Perhaps the team had problems with it in the past. Again, we don't know all the situation with the team (you probably don't either). Making decisions on partial information is a bad idea.

Our build space can only fit, comfortably and with everyone working, 10 people. Yet, we have 30 kids. We find things for them to do. We keep them engaged. We constantly challenge them to find ways to make our team better. And the kids learn and prosper. We have very limited full time mentors, I myself am not a full time mentor. Scheduling what kids can do is important if you want to keep large amounts involved. Get kids excited about FIRST, and believe me, you hardly need to watch them. Just let them go and prosper.

No. You need to watch them. We build FTC in a persons house. A) It is their home and I wouldn't want children wandering around my home. B) We do work with power tools (even more so in FRC) and I have always held that any student that is using a tool that has a motor in it needs to at least have an adult supervising them (even if it is just watching out of the corner of their eye) in case they get hurt.

In my case I have access to a larger site that is slightly better suited to our needs and we are working on moving there BUT I will still need to watch students very carefully (this time for legal reasons). Which still puts a limit onto the number of people that can come in. Again, it comes down to how many people the mentors feel comfortable working with.

Originally Posted by JustAThought

I will, after this post, refrain from further comments.

I have seen through these posts that most people only wish to find reasons why to turn kids down. To me, it is sad. FIRST saved my life, if it wasn't for FIRST, I would have no future. I did not want to do this anonymously, however I did not want my views reflected as my teams views. They have no idea I posted this, nor will they ever know it was me.

My experience at FIRST has shown me the power it has on kids. If you get them involved in something they like, they will never let it go. I can see that has been forgotten. It is rather disappointing not to see more people like the leadership I had growing up in this organization. Leaders who were willing to find ways to make deals and work with the kids. We have plans for if the entire school were to join, and it would keep them all engaged.

To Chief Delphi, I bid you a fair well. I hope that one day, we will find a way to give every kid who wants to be a FIRST member to be a FIRST member and an application will only be used to show progress. Until then, I will be working with my team to continue recruiting and growing our team. No matter how large it gets, we will ALWAYS have room for them in our family.

I don't want to turn away kids. I never claimed that and frankly I would never turn away a student that wanted to learn. There are simply certain limits that are based on hard facts. I cannot safely watch more than 15 students with the current mentor force. Furthermore I cannot ensure that each student is getting the attention that they need. If there is sufficient interest I will be attempting to approach these problems via other means. Ultimately, I can't tell them no. It's why I spend thousands of my own dollars helping teams every year. But there are certain things I can't control. Physical space... safety...money... I can influence them but frankly... there's only so much I can do. If you have ways I can scale this stuff infinitely let me know cuz I'd love to. 79 had, at the start of this season, 80 students. I'd love to see that number go to 160 and still have an even higher percentage of students participating. To have you say I don't care about students is, frankly, a huge insult and I suggest you not toss that around. None of us would be here if we didn't.

[dtengineering]

Originally Posted by JustAThought

I will, after this post, refrain from further comments.

I have seen through these posts that most people only wish to find reasons why to turn kids down. To me, it is sad. FIRST saved my life, if it wasn't for FIRST, I would have no future. I did not want to do this anonymously, however I did not want my views reflected as my teams views. They have no idea I posted this, nor will they ever know it was me.

My experience at FIRST has shown me the power it has on kids. If you get them involved in something they like, they will never let it go. I can see that has been forgotten. It is rather disappointing not to see more people like the leadership I had growing up in this organization. Leaders who were willing to find ways to make deals and work with the kids. We have plans for if the entire school were to join, and it would keep them all engaged.

To Chief Delphi, I bid you a fair well. I hope that one day, we will find a way to give every kid who wants to be a FIRST member to be a FIRST member and an application will only be used to show progress. Until then, I will be working with my team to continue recruiting and growing our team. No matter how large it gets, we will ALWAYS have room for them in our family.

I ran this through google translate... it came out as:

"Since some of you dare to see shades of grey in what is clearly a matter of right and wrong, you are obviously unworthy of further attention. I will go be awesome now. Adieu, petty-minded deniers of opportunity!"

Ah, how I miss being young and knowing everything.

Jason

[Undertones]

It's unfortunate you had to go through that, but every FIRST team does their own thing. I'm pretty sure there's no rule that states teams have to support STEM education (although I could be wrong). It sucks, it does, but there's nothing any of us can do.

Which team was this? I'm somewhat curious. If you don't want to share that, that's fine too.

And, as an afterthought, why doesn't your girlfriend's son just join your team?

[Gray Adams]

Different teams have different requirements and capabilities. Our team has 2 class periods, one of which you must be enrolled in if you want to be a member of the team. This caps us at around 55, even thought we get 80 or so applicants each year. It's not realistic to make FIRST teams different from all other organizations, where anyone can do whatever they want and still be a part of it. If a team decides that students who can't maintain grades while on the team can't participate, that's their prerogative. Sports teams do that all the time, in the interest of the student's academic career, not out of punishment.

Similarly, if you can't contribute enough time to be a valuable member of the team, is it really fair to expect leaders and mentors to spend their time training you, getting you involved, and then having you walk away? Of course this happens to some degree, its only natural for people in high school to not know exactly what they want to do, but maybe this team has found that they need to be a little stricter to be successful (I don't mean winning is the only way of being successful either).

There are things they do that I'm sure I'd disagree with, but if that's what keeps their team running, who are we to tell them that they need to accept more students, even if they can't?

[Andrew Schreiber]

Did you ever think that the reason might not be to deny students but to ensure a quality experience for the students that are part of the team? I know on my FTC team we are having to go to an application approach not because we don't want to have the students but because our build space is too small for more than 15 students and because we don't have the mentors to ensure that every student gets the attention they deserve/need.

As for asking students to pay... I see nothing wrong with asking students to pay for their travel. As for paying dues, that depends on the particulars of the team, one of the things I feel would be important would be that the team works with the students to pay the dues through fundraising and other things. On 397 we had no dues but we required students to participate in fundraising. On the FTC team we have dues and require them to participate in fundraising (no way we can get support from a school due to being primarily homeschool students and I am working on finding corporate sponsors to help alleviate some of this burden from the students).

The part that bothers me about this is that you seem to think it is acceptable to anonymously bash another team and how they have decided to run without knowing all the facts about the team.

[JosephC]

We require a $200 participation fee in order to join our team (Or they can get a sponsorship). In return students receive $250 dollars each year they are on the team. This money is put in a scholarship fund. Pay $800 dollars over 4 years, you get $1000 back. Students and mentors are not required to pay for transportation or hotels to any event during the official season.

68 also requires that students do not play winter sports. Band and Choir are the exceptions due to those being all year long. During the build season we require that you attend Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday meetings. If your on a build group such as chassis or manipulator, you must also attend 2 out of the 3 build sessions (Monday, Wednesday, Friday). You must also attend every competition (excluding off season).

We do both of these things because of previous experiences. I'm sure we would make exceptions in certain cases, and in no circumstances would we ever want to turn down students. Every teams experiences are different, and thus ever team has different requirements. Please keep this in mind.

Thank you for reading =)

Edits in bold.

[MagiChau]

The team application you have described seemed "extreme" compared to my perception of the application. Our team cannot support a large number of students (35+.) We resulted in using a short application form and interview to determine if there is enough interest to participate and make sure we do not over-extend on amount of members. Unfortunately, there are people that are not willing to do any work and just mess around as well. Limited ability to support a number of students and need of actual interest are my two main criteria for the use of applications.

I have never heard of requiring full hours in build season and a team fee. I hope we can use this as a good discussion on the nature of team applications.

[JustAThought]

Removal from a team because of inactivity is one thing, however, removal because you cannot be there the entire time is a completely different matter.

Our build space can only fit, comfortably and with everyone working, 10 people. Yet, we have 30 kids. We find things for them to do. We keep them engaged. We constantly challenge them to find ways to make our team better. And the kids learn and prosper. We have very limited full time mentors, I myself am not a full time mentor. Scheduling what kids can do is important if you want to keep large amounts involved. Get kids excited about FIRST, and believe me, you hardly need to watch them. Just let them go and prosper.