CNC Lathes

[MichaelBick]

I've been charged with the job of writing a proposal to our school's board of directors(private school) for new tools for our robotics programs. Because our robotics program both significantly lacks funding and space, I have been putting together different "plans" on ways our school could help sponsor our team. I was thinking of including a Haas CNC lathe in one of these plans but I'm not sure how much we would use it. I would love if people could tell me how useful they have found them to be, because if they aren't used a lot, I think the money and space could be better used on other machines. In addition could you please reccomend models. Thanks.

[wouldwurker]

I've mentored with a team for the last 5 years. We work out our design concepts where intricate lathe work is not a real need. There have been a few needs for cylindrical work over the years where we have made use of a 1940's South Bend lathe located in my basement (my kids have run this for the team). Typically this has been some special machining on a set of wheels or a shaft or two needing a drilled and tapped hole on the end, or possibly turned down to a metric-equivalent size.
I'm not convinced that a team with limited resources really needs a CNC lathe, or even a CNC mill. Last year our team purchased a drilling/milling machine with no CNC capabilities - but it is a wonderful machine for doing some light milling and precision drilling patterns for gear trains.
When we have a need for exotic machining, we look to our local machine shops for a donation of labor and have not yet come up short.
If you have restricted space, make use of it wisely. Loading it with equipment that has minor advantage is just not worth it.
Good luck!

[Cory]

You're looking at 25-30k. Spend it somewhere else. If you have to ask if you should include it in your proposal, then you don't really need it. Especially given how many machine shops there are in the greater LA area that you could find to turn parts for you.

Focus on getting a well organized workspace and some quality manual machine tools.

[Metalcrafters]

Does you school have any experience or back ground in machining? I will start with that question before I can offer any advice.


A good basic lathe can make anything FRC related just fine. This coming from school that has a CNC lathe.

With any type of machine there are extra costs in tooling and basic equipment. So it really is not just the cost of machine itself.

[taharder]

This is really something that you have to discuss with your mentor. If a truck rolled up with a 4000 lb machine in your parking lot tomorrow, there is a good chance that it would sit outside for a couple of months (it does not fit through your doors?!?). Buying this style of machine is not a small undertaking. You need space, electricity, tooling as Lucas mentioned.

I would recommend looking at a CNC Router as your first CNC machine. Paton Group in Los Angeles sells TechnoCNC Routers and you will be able to easily cut any kind of plastic and wood. You don't need much tooling to do so and they sell specifically to the educational market. They can also sell you MasterCAM educationally.

You should look at forming a partnership with a local community college to get training in machining if you intend to do machining. At the CNC mill level, Tormach has advertised here on CD and it seems to be a good starter mill.

Our team has two Haas TM-1's and two TL-1's. Machines of this caliber are useless without training and knowledgeable people around. A mill is more flexible and therefore more useful in the immediate sense. A lathe can do things that a mill cannot and is therefore complementary.

Show this post to your mentor and have them contact Lucas or myself. We are both in the South Bay (Los Angeles) area.

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by MICHAELABICK

I've been charged with the job of writing a proposal to our school's board of directors(private school) for new tools for our robotics programs. Because our robotics program both significantly lacks funding and space, I have been putting together different "plans" on ways our school could help sponsor our team. I was thinking of including a Haas CNC lathe in one of these plans but I'm not sure how much we would use it. I would love if people could tell me how useful they have found them to be, because if they aren't used a lot, I think the money and space could be better used on other machines. In addition could you please reccomend models. Thanks.

If you can't think of how you will use it, it is probably a pointless investment.

You would be much better off buying an old South Bend (or other) lathe on Craigslist and fixing it up. Don't know how? No worries ask around to find a retired machinist in your community and I guarantee you'll make that guy's year. Not to mention you get to preserve (and use!) a piece of American history.

(And it'll be like two orders of magnitude cheaper, especially if it comes with tooling)

[MichaelBick]

We don't have any experience doing any serious machining(lathe + mill) except for one of our mentors. That said, a cnc would not be a substitute for manual equipment. Both manual lathes and mills are tools that are the top of of my list regardless. The only things that I can think of off the top of my head that would need a CNC lathe is a shifting block like the ones 254 uses and WCD output shafts if we got live tooling with the lathe. I would also assume that it would speed up the operations that you can do on a manual lathe, though I don't know because we've never done CAM and setup for a CNC part. The above considered, I would want to know if the cnc lathe has sped up the machining process for your team considerably, because if it has I would want to include it in my proposal.

[Michael Hill]

One of my team's sponsors (who also gives us building space) has a CNC lathe we utilized last year to make pulley wheels on the cheap. We had him make about 40 of them from what I recall. That would have been a REAL hassle on a manual lathe (if not impossible to get the precision).

[Joey Milia]

I wouldn't suggest including a Haas CNC lathe. It's only advantage would be in producing large quantities of complex parts, short of that whatever you need can be done on a manual machine. In addition Haas CNC lathes aren't very good, and have been known to machine tapers (Haas mills excellent though).

I would instead suggest looking at quality manual lathes with full tooling, or CNC milling machines.

[Adrian Clark]

Originally Posted by MICHAELABICK

The only things that I can think of off the top of my head that would need a CNC lathe is a shifting block like the ones 254 uses and WCD output shafts if we got live tooling with the lathe.

That would be an operation done on a mill (CNC or manual) with a 4th axis with roughing/circlip-groves done on a manual lathe.

I can't think of any part that you would make for an FRC robot that couldn't be made on a manual lathe. The only advantage of a CNC lathe I can think of is the high turnaround time and the repeatability, but if you or anyone on your team has never run one before I can guarantee it will be a while before you gain either of those benefits.

CNC machines are not magical part producing machining, they require a lot of knowledge and expertise to operate. I would highly recommend that you spend your money elsewhere.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by MICHAELABICK

The only things that I can think of off the top of my head that would need a CNC lathe is a shifting block like the ones 254 uses and WCD output shafts if we got live tooling with the lathe.

This is a $100,000-150,000 machine.

I would stick with finding sponsors to make you stuff. Especially if you are only making one robot worth of parts.

[MichaelBick]

We do make two robots, but now that I think about it, we wouldn't even be machining duplicate parts in high quantities(other than drive). Actually we almost lost a sponsor last year due to the workload we gave them, so we're trying to not repeat that during this next build season. I know multiple people have mentioned south bend for manual lathes and I also happen to know that 254 has a Jet(or at least had one). Do both of these companies make ok fine lathes for FRC purposes?

[DampRobot]

Originally Posted by MICHAELABICK

We do make two robots, but now that I think about it, we wouldn't even be machining duplicate parts in high quantities(other than drive). Actually we almost lost a sponsor last year due to the workload we gave them, so we're trying to not repeat that during this next build season. I know multiple people have mentioned south bend for manual lathes and I also happen to know that 254 has a Jet(or at least had one). Do both of these companies make ok fine lathes for FRC purposes?

I've actually heard that sme of 254's members were not fans of the Jet (because of the tail stock, mainly). We use a Grizzley manual lathe, which we have really come to love. It's broken a few times, but when properly taken care of, it really is an excellent machine to learn on or work with.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by MICHAELABICK

We do make two robots, but now that I think about it, we wouldn't even be machining duplicate parts in high quantities(other than drive). Actually we almost lost a sponsor last year due to the workload we gave them, so we're trying to not repeat that during this next build season. I know multiple people have mentioned south bend for manual lathes and I also happen to know that 254 has a Jet(or at least had one). Do both of these companies make ok fine lathes for FRC purposes?

There are probably hundreds if not many hundreds of machine shops within a reasonable distance of you. I would be surprised if you can't find multiple shops to assist you with CNC machining.
JET does not make good machines.

JET/Grizzly/etc are all made by the same factories, with different paint jobs and name plates. The only difference is country of origin. If it came from Taiwan it might be pretty decent to good. If it came from China it's almost certainly garbage. Maybe it'll last for awhile under light use and maybe you can still make good parts with it, but it will require 20x more work/operator skill to keep it running well.

Unfortunately there isn't a large market out there for really high quality new manual lathes. There's a few, but they're all $15,000+ for a 13x40 sized machine.

If you're writing a proposal for funding I'm guessing buying used is not an option. If so, you're either spending a lot of money for a high quality machine or half as much for a machine that will probably work fine for 4-5 years and then start showing issues due to quality, depending on how demanding you are of your machinery.

If you can buy used and have someone who can identify a good machine and help fix anything that might be wrong with it, you can find a machine that will be around in 30 years and still making good parts.

[George C]

Standard-Modern is still in business and makes great lathes from 13 to 26" including CNC versions. I believe they're still made in Canada and available in the US. They were the standard (no pun intended) lathe in many school shops for years. Loads of used ones available.

http://www.standard-modern.com/index.html

South Bend is still making lathes as well. My 9" was built in 1926 and still works well.

http://www.southbendlathe.com/