Proposal: A New Way to Run FIRST Choice

[JohnChristensen]

Yesterday was a mess for many teams including mine. Ultimately AndyMark was very helpful and made good on their mistake (shipping weight error on the window motors). However, for many other teams, the problems were not fixed to the same level as mine. This lead to a long rethinking of FIRST Choice.

Currently, unless a teams main or alt contact is ready and waiting at 12 PM EST for the opening, they will lose out on the best parts. Since these individuals are always adults, it can be assumed they have jobs to do elsewhere at that time. This disadvantages them significantly. The other issue is lack of quantity limits this year on the most valuable items (Talons, Classmates, Sidecars).

After thinking about this, I believe FIRST should implement a ranked choice draft. Basically, FIRST would release the point costs for all items and the credits per team about a month in advance. Teams would then have about three weeks to submit a ranked list of choices to FIRST. This list might look this for my team:

1. cRio
2. Sidecar
3. FESTO Valve
4. FESTO Valve
5. Talon
6. Left Window Motor
etc.

With these lists in hand FIRST would then do a random draft order. Each round every team would get the next highest item on their list that they have the credits to afford. In my case, since there were 30 sidecars this year, I might not get one in the second round, so FIRST would give my team a FESTO Valve (third on my list). The draft would end when all teams list were empty, or all teams credits were gone, or all the parts were gone.

Teams would be allowed to submit list for any number of credits. You could go way over the amount of credits given to make sure you participate late into the draft, or you could only submit for a few items to save credits for later. After the draft is complete, FIRST can then open up the remaining items and credits for purchases at a predetermined time (like Kickoff, when game pieces are available).

I think this would lessen the impact on all teams when things go wrong. It would also eliminate the need for this crazy mad dash to the parts.

John

[Hallry]

Originally Posted by JohnChristensen

With these lists in hand FIRST would then do a random draft order. Each round every team would get the next highest item on their list that they have the credits to afford. In my case, since there were 30 sidecars this year, I might not get one in the second round, so FIRST would give my team a FESTO Valve (third on my list). The draft would end when all teams list were empty, or all teams credits were gone, or all the parts were gone.

Teams would be allowed to submit list for any number of credits. You could go way over the amount of credits given to make sure you participate late into the draft, or you could only submit for a few items to save credits for later. After the draft is complete, FIRST can then open up the remaining items and credits for purchases at a predetermined time (like Kickoff, when game pieces are available).

I think this would lessen the impact on all teams when things go wrong. It would also eliminate the need for this crazy mad dash to the parts.

One must remember, there are now 2,500 teams in FIRST. This would require employees of FIRST to dedicate much time towards this, instead of other possible work.

Also, some might say that if they implement this, why wouldn't they do this for Regionals as well? Have teams send in lists of what competitions they want to attend and then do a draft based on that, instead of everyone logging on right at 12 noon when registration opens.

(Just trying to play Devil's advocate)

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Hallry

One must remember, there are now 2,500 teams in FIRST. This would require employees of FIRST to dedicate much time towards this, instead of other possible work.

Also, some might say that if they implement this, why wouldn't they do this for Regionals as well? Have teams send in lists of what competitions they want to attend and then do a draft based on that, instead of everyone logging on right at 12 noon when registration opens.

(Just trying to play Devil's advocate)

Actually, it can be done algorithmically with very little involvement from FIRST staff.

[Clinton Bolinger]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Actually, it can be done algorithmically with very little involvement from FIRST staff.

You would think the same thing about signing up for events. However, in Michigan we had to wait a 2 weeks to sign up for an event if we did not plan on attending our home event. Then those teams had to rush to sign up for two events on the same day.

But yes having teams create priority list for Events and FIRSTChoice would help relieve some of the system load, as well as, increase the level accessibility for teams (ie. mentors that have jobs that don't allow for them to have internet access at a specific time).

-Clinton-

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Clinton Bolinger

You would think the same thing about signing up for events. However, in Michigan we had to wait a 2 weeks to sign up for an event if we did not plan on attending our home event. Then those teams had to rush to sign up for two events on the same day.

But yes having teams create priority list for Events and FIRSTChoice would help relieve some of the system load, as well as, increase the level accessibility for teams (ie. mentors that have jobs that don't allow for them to have internet access at a specific time).

-Clinton-

I WOULD. However, my logical assumption would be that minimizing travel distance would be my priority metric. This is a naive assumption though since it could throw people into events they cannot attend for other reasons (timing for example). Whereas parts selection is relatively simple and doesn't have as many constraints. It'd be a simple matter of optimizing the top choices for teams. I guess I could apply this logic to events too.

[Clinton Bolinger]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

I WOULD. However, my logical assumption would be that minimizing travel distance would be my priority metric. This is a naive assumption though since it could throw people into events they cannot attend for other reasons (timing for example). Whereas parts selection is relatively simple and doesn't have as many constraints. It'd be a simple matter of optimizing the top choices for teams. I guess I could apply this logic to events too.

Yes.

The priority should be set by the individual team (both for Events and FIRSTChoice). If team think the travel distance is important then they would use that metric when organising it. If traveling to events they have never attend then the sort their list accordingly.

As for Michigan and "home" events you easily run through teams that have signed up for their home event. Then you go to the teams pick list for events.

I still think you can still have people make a list for their 1st event. Then wait 2 weeks to use a new or same list for their 2nd events.

-Clinton-

[Foster]

(Just trying to play Devil's advocate)

It sounded to me like we had a volunteer to collect the orders, write and then put them into a program that would sort / random draw the orders and then electronically send them to Andy Mark for processing.

I love it when people step up to help!

[Andy A.]

The most interesting idea posed to me so far was a blind bidding process.

The 'auction' lasts a week. You place your bids up to some maximum (say 100 points). At the end of the week the items are 'awarded' to the teams who bid the highest for that item. Ties are broken randomly. The process then goes into another round of bidding, with teams allowed to redistribute their remaining points if they lost a bid.

Another idea was to start all teams at 0 points, and start adding them over time- say 10 points a day, such that each team might be able to afford one 'high value' item a day. really desirable things, like a class mate or Crio might cost a couple days allowance.

Or we could just get randomized kit or parts- it'd be at least as fair as the current system, which seems largely depending on how fast you can click through check out forms and whether the Server gods smile upon you that moment.

[maddoctor90]

I would rather see FIRST spend their time fixing other issues...

If teams can't figure out a way to handle FIRST Choice with GP (come together and agree to not horde the best items), then a simple limiting of items teams can get would do.

[Jared Russell]

Each team gets assigned a random number, 1...27xx.

Each team created a prioritized list of things they would like to order (in qty 1). Ex:

1. Talon
2. Talon
3. Talon
4. Talon
5. Drill
6. Video card
etc.

The system automatically goes through a serpentine draft, assigning one item at a time. First pick in the first round is last pick in the second, etc.

Draft continues until all lists are empty, all credits are spent, or all stocks are depleted - whichever comes first for each team. The whole draft would take seconds.

After the draft, each team is presented with a voucher for the products they were assigned along with shipping information. At this step, a team has a chance to remove any products they no longer want from their order and then check out.

A couple days after the draft, FIRST Choice opens up ala yesterday, with a free for all to spend remaining credits on remaining merchandise. But without some teams getting 11 Talons and others getting stuck with low value items.

[arizonafoxx]

I don't like that as a mentor I am doing a crazy thing like WORKING when FIRST Choice opens up. I don't like being penalized because a meeting runs over and I am late logging in by 30 minutes. That has always been my gripe about this system. This year it looks like that technically would not have mattered because we probably would have had a problem anyway if we logged in right on time. I am also glad I am helping a team that got the standard KOP it seems like the voucher system is going to hurt some teams since they were not able to buy what they wanted to buy. Hopefully lots of restocks happen between now and kick off.

I agree there has to be a better way. I think the draft system sounds interesting and again gets us closer to a real sport. Just think if football teams got the best player based on who was able to login first and click submit. There also has to be a limit on items for the first week. It is not fair for a team that logs in right away to snatch up all the Talons and not leave any for a rookie team that logs in at 12:30 or 1p. I think every week until kickoff you should be able to have another order if you want more but only be able to get one or two of each item per week. I think after kick off having the limit lifted could be OK but who knows maybe the first week after kickoff have a limit as well so that the non-voucher teams can't sweep all the Talons off the shelf.

Lets hope that the next few weeks smooth out for this process I would hate for teams to be at a disadvantage just because a new system was unprepared for FIRST Onslaught. Reminds me of looking for lunacy balls the day after kickoff. Man that sucked.

[apalrd]

It should be possible to automate this task. This is a great data manipulation task for a computer.

The only question would be:
-What happens if they run out of the sidecar half way through the second round? How do you rank which teams get them? Do you claim that item out of stock for everyone in that round, and save the extra for next year, or do the current auction system for the excess?

If you implemented a similar system for regionals, you could set rules to prioritize teams based on geography when there are conflicts. Then, the teams that need to go there for travel reasons get in first. You could also prioritize further away teams in the later rounds, to promote more geographical diversity at regionals.




Seems like it would work, as long as they do proper numerical comparisons on numbers.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by apalrd

The only question would be:
-What happens if they run out of the sidecar half way through the second round? How do you rank which teams get them? Do you claim that item out of stock for everyone in that round, and save the extra for next year, or do the current auction system for the excess?

Randomize the team order list at the start of each round (so you may be the first team in round 1, but the last team in round 2). Then whoever gets the items first gets them.

You could also do a semi-randomization algorithm that would weigh being highly ranked in early rounds more, so those who are unlucky and ranked near the bottom in the first round have a higher chance of being ranked near the top in the second, and so on.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

Randomize the team order list at the start of each round (so you may be the first team in round 1, but the last team in round 2). Then whoever gets the items first gets them.

You could also do a semi-randomization algorithm that would weigh being highly ranked in early rounds more, so those who are unlucky and ranked near the bottom in the first round have a higher chance of being ranked near the top in the second, and so on.

Or simply write an algorithm that minimizes a Badness. And we define Badness as the rank on the team's list. If everyone got their first choice the badness would be 2500. If everyone got their 3rd choice it'd be 7500. From then we just run any of a handful of optimization processes on it until we get an acceptable solution.

[JohnChristensen]

Originally Posted by apalrd

-What happens if they run out of the sidecar half way through the second round? How do you rank which teams get them? Do you claim that item out of stock for everyone in that round, and save the extra for next year, or do the current auction system for the excess?

My original thought process was to have a draft order and if the part is available when your team number is up you get the part.

Originally Posted by Andy A.

The 'auction' lasts a week. You place your bids up to some maximum (say 100 points). At the end of the week the items are 'awarded' to the teams who bid the highest for that item. Ties are broken randomly. The process then goes into another round of bidding, with teams allowed to redistribute their remaining points if they lost a bid.

Another idea was to start all teams at 0 points, and start adding them over time- say 10 points a day, such that each team might be able to afford one 'high value' item a day. really desirable things, like a class mate or Crio might cost a couple days allowance.

I saw that in the other thread. My issue is yesterday I had to miss a college lecture to order parts. Now if everyone gets new points at 12 PM EST for a week, I have to miss a week of lectures to get parts. I really think FIRST needs to look to a system that allows for the adults on teams to work our day jobs during the day.

The auction system would be interesting, but I think there would be the potential for a lot of items to go unclaimed. If I bid 35 credits for a cRio and the next lowest bid is 25 credits, I lose out on 10 credits and can't get a second item. If this was implemented, I think the auction would need to play with the same rules as the clearing of US national electric grid on the regional ISOs.

No matter what happens, I still believe we need an updated system. As much as we call for gracious professionalism, the prisoners' dilemma will still exist because of the secrecy surrounding the current system. I think it is fair to say someone got 11 talons yesterday, but no one knows who they are. Without that knowledge being public, calling for gracious professionalism will do almost nothing.

Just my two cents...