Is Bag and Tag Necessary?

[Brian Selle]

Having just passed the stop build day, I am left wondering if it is really necessary and moreover, fair.

My thought is that larger, well staffed and funded teams simply build 2 robots and skip over bag and tag day like a formality and their build continues on their 2nd identical, completed robot. Mid-size teams often scramble and stress to find the funds and resources to build 2 robots, but probably have to expend several extra days after the stop build day to bring their 2nd robot online. Smaller, rookie teams haven't figured out the benefit of the 12 week continuous build cycle or simple can't afford it. Bottom line is that stop build = major advantage to teams who can fund and build 2 robots.

I'd like to see a rule that either everyone stops on stop build day or better yet, just do away with it. Like most other competitions, the stop preparing day is the competition day... whether week 1 or week 6 it's completely fair for everyone.

Besides the nice marketing clip about the 6-week FRC build season I don't see any reason for it. Thoughts?

[dodar]

Originally Posted by btslaser

Having just passed the stop build day, I am left wondering if it is really necessary and moreover, fair.

My thought is that larger, well staffed and funded teams simply build 2 robots and skip over bag and tag day like a formality and their build continues on their 2nd identical, completed robot. Mid-size teams often scramble and stress to find the funds and resources to build 2 robots, but probably have to expend several extra days after the stop build day to bring their 2nd robot online. Smaller, rookie teams haven't figured out the benefit of the 12 week continuous build cycle or simple can't afford it. Bottom line is that stop build = major advantage to teams who can fund and build 2 robots.

I'd like to see a rule that either everyone stops on stop build day or better yet, just do away with it. Like most other competitions, the stop preparing day is the competition day... whether week 1 or week 6 it's completely fair for everyone.

Besides the nice marketing clip about the 6-week FRC build season I don't see any reason for it. Thoughts?

Not all teams that build 2 robots are big and well funded. 1592 was moderately funded but well understaffed for 2 years while building 2 robots but was still able to do it. We found a way to get through this by teaming up with Team 801 who is located not more than 15 miles from our team. Teams do not realize how rewarding it is to be able to work with another team in both fundraising and build season.

[topgun]

Work expands to fill the time available. We essentially did a double build season in 2010 since we had a later Regional and people were burned out at the end of the season. Students need a date to focus on otherwise they don't have a sense of urgency to complete it by the bag day.

There are advantages to building two robots, which is your incentive to raise more funds to do it.

The bag and tag restriction I find frustrating is the time that the kids really see the issues with the robot is during the competition. They become focused on the issues and their minds are churning on ideas on how to solve the problems and they are motivated. Then the Regional ends and we have to stick it in the bag until the next Regional. But I don't know how to allow build time between Regionals that would be fair to the first time participants at the next Regional. The solution would be to build a 2nd robot to test the changes on at home between Regionals.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted by btslaser

Besides the nice marketing clip about the 6-week FRC build season I don't see any reason for it. Thoughts?

I need a nap.

My wife and kids need a husband and dad.

George is bagged, and that's a very good thing.

[AllenGregoryIV]

This has been discussed before. The only teams it would hurt are those that have to ship their robots ahead of time. Teams in other countries would be at a disadvantage to those that get to drive their robot to the event. That's the only real downside I see. Also you can't tell potential members/mentors that "it's only 6 weeks" when in reality it's 16 weeks and everyone knows it.

[Akash Rastogi]

2495 built their robot with ~$1000, yet we came up with a way to create a practice bot of sorts with help from the withholding allowance. They are a team of around 12 students and mentors.

Any team is capable of working towards this. Fairness does not come into play with this, I think. I can understand your points though, but I think many, if not most, teams are capable of creating a platform to work on even after bagging their robots.

[tsaksa]

I doubt very many teams have the resources to build more than one robot. Many of the teams I know struggle to find the resources just to buy their kit of parts. Yes there will always be some teams with the money and resources to build two robots, but I expect they are the exception rather than the rule. And, even if they are not, I chose not to worry about what other teams do or do not have anyway.

Our team probably does not have much of a chance to win at nationals, or to even get there except on a luckiest of years when they take all the right gambles. But that is not important. The students have already achieved a lot and benefited from the entire process. Dealing with significant limitations in resources can be a important skill in itself. Going through various design concepts, prototyping, building, and debugging is just as valuable on a simple design that takes advantage of our teams unique strengths and resources, as it might have been on a more complex one that we did not have the resources to build.

Our current robot is relatively modest, and needed to be because of budget and resource limitations. However, it is solid and well thought out. Our team is just as excited over our robot as any team I have seen, and has learned more than I could ever have expected. They will go to regionals and will be very proud of what they have accomplished, and they deserve to be. They have felt the fire of what science and technology at work can do and they are spreading the word at their school and community. With all that going on, who has time to count robots?

[Short Stuff]

Originally Posted by tsaksa

Our team probably does not have much of a chance to win at nationals, or to even get there except on a luckiest of years when they take all the right gambles. But that is not important. The students have already achieved a lot and benefited from the entire process. Dealing with significant limitations in resources can be a important skill in itself. Going through various design concepts, prototyping, building, and debugging is just as valuable on a simple design that takes advantage of our teams unique strengths and resources, as it might have been on a more complex one that we did not have the resources to build.

Our current robot is relatively modest, and needed to be because of budget and resource limitations. However, it is solid and well thought out.

I agree with this because Team 2594 is a team with low funding an dour robot is also one that has a solid design and intesting was hitting almost every one of its shots at the high goal. All this was possible bacause of the dedication of the students to plan and build out a well planned and tested robot that we can take to competition and be proud of no matter what the results are.

[Peter Matteson]

Originally Posted by tsaksa

I doubt very many teams have the resources to build more than one robot. Many of the teams I know struggle to find the resources just to buy their kit of parts. Yes there will always be some teams with the money and resources to build two robots, but I expect they are the exception rather than the rule. And, even if they are not, I chose not to worry about what other teams do or do not have anyway.

You can build 2 robots and make Einstein with a far lower budget than many of you think. Resources aren't just cash, it's the teams' design skill and planning.

A practice robot need not be a full robot. Have a kitbot from last year or anyother working drive base lying around? If you built a modular robot and wisely planned out your witholding allowance you have a fully usable practice bot that will get you plenty of mileage with your drivers.

A practice robot is just another design constraint you add during design. It will cost you almost nothing but time and labor, IF YOU PLAN AHEAD!

[DELurker]

[CYNIC] As has been said, life isn't fair, so why should the competition be? [/CYNIC]

Having said that, let me relate a short story. I once worked for a machine design firm. We delivered a $300,000 machine to a customer on the deadline. We then spent 4 months integrating the machine into their environment.

Is this any different from the Bag-And-Tag versus after situation? Not significantly.

This is the first year 1370 has made a practice robot. It has taken us three years of work to gather up the spare electronics and wheels to do it, but we think it will be worth it. We used a donation of materials and another of services to get two "identical" frames cut and welded so that we could make both bots work. Unfortunately, we didn't get enough weldments made, but the 30 lb witholding is our friend.

The short form is it's not really a cost issue, it's a resources and partnerships issue. We have a metals distributor that sells materials to us at really low prices. We have a mentor who used to teach welding at our school before anything similar to a vocational program got taken away. The total incremental cost for making twice as many frame pieces as strictly needed was a few additional hours of a mentor's time and a longer teaching opportunity for the students. If you have a local welding shop who could donate an employee for a few hours as a mentor, all of this could be yours, too.

[sanddrag]

I hate that to be truly competitive in this sport it's now almost required to have a practice robot. The part I really dislike is that we are incurring all these additional costs to have something sitting in a bag, while we continue work on an identical copy. In that regard, bagging is rather pointless, and does little other than imposing additional costs on the teams who do have the means to do a practice robot. You are simply putting yourself at a serious disadvantage if you don't have one. You're buying more time essentially. And the methods and standards by which we work imposes significant significant additional costs and work hours on the team. Yes a practice robot gives a definite advantage, but it also gives A LOT of additional workload. It's not to be taken lightly, and it's not for every team. It's twice the welding hours, twice the COTS parts costs, twice the fundraising to pay for it all, and the additional time investment of development and practice.

Our build season runs from January 5th until March 27th, and it's torture on personal lives. I have over 400 hours into this already. As a team, we have over 5800 people-hours into it this season, and we aren't close to being done yet. It would be nice to have a hard date that says we get to go home and sleep, but we aren't part of a sleeping competition. We can sleep on March 31st after our second regional.

The part I do like though is that it gives more students the opportunity to be a part of the robot wiring and assembly and gives them more opportunities to design, test, iterate, and refine.

[Jon Stratis]

Yes, Bag and Tag is necessary, purely for my personal sanity. 6 weeks is about all I can take of the build season before I get so far behind other personal and work commitments that I can't catch up. Plus, I need the sleep!

[Nemo]

People get on their soap boxes pretty quickly when they perceive a whiff of a chance that somebody is complaining about teams with resources. But I think the OP brings up a great point. If we didn't have to bag it after six weeks, we wouldn't need to build a practice robot. It would require less resources to accomplish the same goals. Makes sense to me.

[David Brinza]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

Yes, Bag and Tag is necessary, purely for my personal sanity. 6 weeks is about all I can take of the build season before I get so far behind other personal and work commitments that I can't catch up. Plus, I need the sleep!

Eight years haven't changed the impact of build season: A classic, spotlighted post.

[pfreivald]

I wish they'd get rid of the withholding allowance altogether. Seriously. In a town as small as mine, finding mentors is difficult, and mentors with kids are almost nonexistent.

I love the competitive aspect of FIRST -- you not only have to build a robot to complete tasks, you have to build it to complete tasks better than everyone else's robots. I love the hard work and the long nights and the drive to always be better than you've been in the past--in design, in build, in fundraising... I love the drive and commitment and...

I have a wife I didn't see for eleven days straight (including Valentine's day). I skipped a nephew's birthday party pre-ship, and because we can withhold, on Saturday I will be missing his going-away party before he ships out for the Navy. One of my good friends is also shipping out (Marines), and I'm going to miss his send-off, too.

FIRST asks a lot from its mentors, and it seems that every year, that amount only ever gets bigger. Maybe it's because of my particular situation--tiny town (3,000 people), tiny school (~750 students K-12), geographic isolation (Southern Tier, with lakes and impassable hills separating most towns)--but a whole crapton of stuff falls on my shoulders, and finding others to share the load is very, very difficult.

I'm not complaining -- like I said, I love it. But if they eliminated Stop Build Day, I'd almost definitely quit.