Climbing and dumping not winning?

[Bpk9p4]

Why are 30 point climber and dumpers not winning?

[mman1506]

They can be outscored by a good shooter relatively easily

[Bpk9p4]

So it seems like the average score is around 75 points. If you can shoot in autonomous and climb and dump that is 68 points. So just confused on how that is not dominating

[Jaxom]

Originally Posted by Bpk9p4

So it seems like the average score is around 75 points. If you can shoot in autonomous and climb and dump that is 68 points. So just confused on how that is not dominating

Do you have a way to figure out how many robots successfully do a 50-point climb and dump? And how often? I've been to 2 regionals and have seen only one (of three that appeared to be capable) successfully accomplish the feat. The one that did couldn't shoot, so no auto score.

At the same two regionals I've seen 2 bots with successful 7-disk auto and another with 5. I've not specifically counted but I'm pretty sure I've seen over 20 bots with 3-disk autos. My point is that I suspect there aren't enough of them, and that the ones that can do 50 aren't successful anywhere close to 100% of the time.

Then factor in time. Most 30-point climbers I've seen take at least 90 seconds to climb; some slower. Even medium-speed shooters are doing 3 runs in a match (say 27 points on average. Add in 18 auto and you've basically beat that 50-point dump. Dominating bots are scoring 60 or more on their own.

[class1234567]

In my view they are getting beat because 50 points just won't do it when an alliance has good shooters. And the situation clears up the field for shooters to go get fed

[MagiChau]

The climber dumper only contributes 50 points without a shooter. A good shooter with 10 point hanger can match the dumper with 18 pt auto 10 pt hang and only 2 cycles of frisbees easily doable by many teams.

[Bpk9p4]

So if you were able to do autonomous, then make one trip with 4 disk and them climb for a total of 80 points. Would that be able to win?

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Bpk9p4

So if you were able to do autonomous, then make one trip with 4 disk and them climb for a total of 80 points. Would that be able to win?

Your opponents happen to be 3 decent shooters, who are 100% in auto and 80% otherwise, and all happen to be high-goal robots. One has floor pickup.

Auto: 9*6=54, plus another 2*6 (pyramid discs) is 66. Let's say they don't get the last pair of discs.

That's only 14 points to make up. Now admittedly, you have two partners who will be in operation, probably hitting their 3 apiece (and stretching the lead out to 50 in the process). But, that means that all your opponents need is a single robot who can make 4-5 trips (and/or pick up misses) and hang for 10 while the other two play defense on your partners, while you spend the entire match in your climb and dump.

The odds aren't exactly in your favor, even now. Now if you had a much faster climb and dump, and so could play D, you've got a chance.

[Nuttyman54]

Climbing and dumping is HARD. I can count on one hand the number of robots which have been able to reliably climb and dump for 50pts at competition. None of them also have an auto mode. The closest is 179, who can shoot reasonably well, climb for 20 and dump for 20.

You are right that a 68 point contribution would win most of your matches. I guarantee you that if you have a robot which can do this every match, you will do very well at competition. Even a reliable 50pts will win a lot of matches (4451 is proof positive of this), but quite frankly, very few teams are at that level of consistency.

Additionally, if you want to be reliable you have to be fast. If it takes you a minute to climb, you may think you have all the time in the world, but it's relatively easy for an opponent to stuff you for the first minute on your trip to the feeder station and back. All of a sudden, you don't have the minute to climb like you need, and you're not in position to dump at the end. 50 points becomes 20 points, which is much less effective. While this might not happen every match, there is almost certain to be some qualification matches where the climb/dump is the primary offensive threat, and will be stopped. As the primary offensive threat in eliminations, you're all but guaranteed to be the focus of the defense. 340 fell victim to this at Finger Lakes Regional, where they were delayed just long enough.

As others have mentioned, a good autonomous and a good disc shooter with a 10 point hang can easily match or better the 50pts, and are not as "all-or-nothing", which makes them much harder to stop.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Because the other alliances score more points.


Now if you wanted to figure out why that was that might make an interesting discussion.

Usually it comes down to the fact that most climb and dump teams are a one trick pony. Good for 56 points in a match. Unfortunately, many of them are taking 1 minute or more to climb which means they run to the feeder station, load up, and commence climbing. This means their alliance is playing 2v3. Assuming the typical strategy of 2 shooters and a defender, the defender is able to essentially make it 2v1 by slowing down the higher scoring of the two remaining robots. So now you have the better 2 scorers almost unmolested scoring for the whole match. They need to beat the lone other shooter by 46 points.

Basically, the reasoning is because most climb and dump bots are too one dimensional from a strategic stand point. Bots like 558 can easily score 30 points (20 from shooting into pyramid and 10 from a low hang) while still being a defensive robot OR using their shooter to put up a few more points.

[Mark Sheridan]

There is also the risk versus reward. Missing a climb is a lot riskier than missing frisbees. You can fall, get no points and be damaged, you can be slow and miss the dump. There is a lot of risk. Even successful climbs and really wore down our practice bot.

[Jonathan Norris]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Because the other alliances score more points.


Now if you wanted to figure out why that was that might make an interesting discussion.

Usually it comes down to the fact that most climb and dump teams are a one trick pony. Good for 56 points in a match. Unfortunately, many of them are taking 1 minute or more to climb which means they run to the feeder station, load up, and commence climbing. This means their alliance is playing 2v3. Assuming the typical strategy of 2 shooters and a defender, the defender is able to essentially make it 2v1 by slowing down the higher scoring of the two remaining robots. So now you have the better 2 scorers almost unmolested scoring for the whole match. They need to beat the lone other shooter by 46 points.

Basically, the reasoning is because most climb and dump bots are too one dimensional from a strategic stand point. Bots like 558 can easily score 30 points (20 from shooting into pyramid and 10 from a low hang) while still being a defensive robot OR using their shooter to put up a few more points.

This.

I've been meaning to make a post about this all season, when you factor in the the time element and how much it opens up the field for good shooters, teams that only focus on 30 point climbing are detrimental to winning... I saw it at BAE, alliances that have one (or even two) teams that are dedicated climbers, make it easier for shooting alliances to win by opening up the field for faster cycle times. At BAE 610 had the opportunity to pick one of two pure 30 point climbing robots (took the whole match to climb) as our 24th pick, but there was more value to us in a defensive robot that scored 14 points (4 auto, 10 hang), and prevented more then 16 point per game by playing great D.

for elite robots this year it's only worth it to go for the 30 point climb if you can do it in under ~20sec. The only team that's proven they can do that is 1114.

[joelg236]

It really is simple math. One robot with a 7 disk auto and a ten point climb beats a 50 point climb. And the robot with auto and ten point climb only takes 5-10 seconds + 15 in auto to make those points, while the 50 point climb takes the whole match.

[Chris is me]

Honestly, all of the above is true, but to be frank I haven't seen many pure 50 point dumpers that actually get 50 points a match. A lot of teams assumed the "dump" part would be easy, but then just ended up being only 30 point climbers, which is a LOT less valuable.

The 50 point dump would still be a strong contender at regionals and very possibly on the right winning alliance, if it consistently existed and the right picks fell to the right alliance captain.

[MrBasse]

We climbed and dumped in every one of our elimination rounds. We also had a three to four disc autonomous in those rounds. It still wasn't enough and we got eliminated in the semi-finals. When you are up against two solid shooters and a good defender it is hard to beat unless your teammates are fast and amazingly accurate.

Another part is that the game pieces are consistent, but not o
100%. We only got all four discs in auto once. Sometimes we only got two. Those twelve points make or break the game.

You could also argue that the game isn't named right, I would have called it "ultimate frisbee shooting, and maybe climb that big tower if you want a good engineering challenge but are okay with losing from time to time"

That doesn't have the same ring to it as "Ultimate Ascent" though does it?