Alliance Selection Strategy

[TheSoftwareGuy]

My team is in the fortunate position of possibly being a top 8 team at the Bayou regional, and we would like some tips on how to you guys make your lists for Alliance selection?

Many thanks.

[themccannman]

Scouting, if you guys don't already have a scouting system set up I would just use OPR data to select teams. Also start researching how to make a good system for scouting for next year as it is one of the most important things your team can have. There should be plenty of threads on here with teams explaining how they do scouting. Our team records all offensive data of every robot then uploads it to MS excel and makes a ranked list of all the teams based on offensive performance. We also have 2 other "super-scouts" (I'm one of them) who record subjective data about robots that the statistical data doesn't tell us. Most of what the super-scouts record is information about robot's defensive capabilities, speed, and driving ability. The offensive data is most important for making your first pick and the subjective/defensive data is what we mostly use for making our second pick as we have usually seen that the best alliances are 2 offensive robots and 1 defensive robot. Hope that helps.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by themccannman

Scouting, if you guys don't already have a scouting system set up I would just use OPR data to select teams.

I would start by throwing OPR into the nearest trash can. Skipping over the whole "setting up a scouting system" aspect, which should definitely be done at some point, here is what I would do:

1) Figure out what strategy will get you farthest in eliminations.
2) Compile a list of teams that have things you don't that will fit with the strategy (floor pickup, 30-point climb, full-court shot, etc.). You may need two or three lists, one for each feature.
3) Make sure you have a total of 24 teams at least; not all of them have to be in one category.
4) Consult your first pick as to preferred strategy/good second picks.

But before picking... Talk to some of the potential partners and see what would happen.

[2789_B_Garcia]

Originally Posted by EricH

I would start by throwing OPR into the nearest trash can.

He's absolutely right. OPR is calculated with alliance stats in a match and the data can be very misleading about individual robots. Some people argue that the law of averages ultimately sets everything straight, but as the mentor of a predominantly defense-oriented team, I can tell you outright that it doesn't give you an accurate picture of individual robots, and it most certainly doesn't factor in the idea that this game is played with a three team alliance, and if all robots do the same thing, the alliance could easily lose to another alliance with lesser robots that are better organized around a more cohesive strategy.

Ideally, I would consider one offensive robot that plays the game differently from my robot and a good defensive robot...not an ok offensive robot that is put to play defense. One of the best parts of being a lower end picking seed is that you can basically get a decent offensive robot as your first pick and then choose the best defensive robot, but few low-end seeds actually do that.

As far as scouting goes, we keep a pretty extensive database on each robot at a regional and rank them based on their own individual merits. We didn't come up with this method on our own, though...we've asked for/stolen ideas on how to scout from the best teams we've been partnered with. One of the best parts about FIRST is the idea of coopertition (even though it doesn't always play out that way when it's been worked into the actual game), so if anything else, go up to an older, more established team and ask them to share scouting data and tips on how they've scouted the teams at Bayou. I can tell you firsthand that 118's scouting system is very visual, simple to understand and very powerful and informative.

[Tknee]

Originally Posted by themccannman

Scouting, if you guys don't already have a scouting system set up I would just use OPR data to select teams.

I think it is the word "just" that I and others have a problem with. The mental image of a team picking solely based off OPR seems almost as wrong as picking the next highest seed. Granted OPR is a much better metric than the ranking system, but great alliances aren't composed of offense alone.

Even without a scouting system providing hard numbers of a robots capabilities, a lot of useful soft information can be gleaned by talking to teams in their pits as well as talking to spectators.

[MrForbes]

Originally Posted by Tknee

Granted OPR is a much better metric than the ranking system, but great alliances aren't composed of offense alone.

Our scouting at the AZ regional was based pretty much totally on offense alone, we counted up auto, teleop and climb points for each robot, summed them for all the Friday matches, and used that to generate an ordered list. Result....we picked the #1 ranked OPR team first, and a very underrated team second. All three teams were offensive most of the time, but our second pick (3944) got drafted into defense mode for our semi's and shut down a full court shooter. Three offensive robots can do just fine at this game, as long as they're good offensive robots. Scoring is how you win matches.

Your regional may vary.

[themccannman]

Originally Posted by Tknee

I think it is the word "just" that I and others have a problem with. The mental image of a team picking solely based off OPR seems almost as wrong as picking the next highest seed. Granted OPR is a much better metric than the ranking system, but great alliances aren't composed of offense alone.

Even without a scouting system providing hard numbers of a robots capabilities, a lot of useful soft information can be gleaned by talking to teams in their pits as well as talking to spectators.

That's not what I was trying to communicate, my bad. I was using "just" as a verbal filler which I probably shouldn't. I was trying to make that clear in my other posts that if they have no other options to only rely on OPR for what it is, offensive ranking. Rarely do you ever pick a third robot to score points and be offensive. I realize I could have been clearer with my original posts but I hope this has clarified most of it.

[waialua359]

Ed,
first of all, thanks for posting the OPR data week after week, year after year.
More than anything, I find it useful to see how robots have done AFTER tournaments.....especially if our team is competing the same weekend (not being able to watch other webcasts).

Nothing beats the good 'ole fashion way of scouting by watching robots in matches.
In recent years, we have either been the #1 seed or picked by the #1 seed most of the time which has kept us busy on friday evenings after event socials.

We always look for robots that either best complement our strategy OR robots that we dont want to face in eliminations the most.

In this year's game, if we went to a regional where we were the best shooter far and above the second best shooting robot, I would NOT consider finding the second best shooter at the tournament......but instead, look if there is a 50 point climb/dumper robot (even if that is all they do!).
With that kind of combination, it would be hard pressed for any opposing alliance to overcome.....assuming autonomous points are equal and full court shooters can be blocked.
I beg to differ that 30 point climbing even if it takes 1 minute, doesnt make a difference. At many regionals this year, selecting a 30 point climber CAN make a difference. Or, it can be a pain to try and overcome if climbers are on the opposing alliance.

[Jack_O]

Okay, thanks for clearing that up. It helps a lot.

[efoote868]

Originally Posted by themccannman

That's not what I was trying to communicate, my bad. I was using "just" as a verbal filler which I probably shouldn't. I was trying to make that clear in my other posts that if they have no other options to only rely on OPR for what it is, offensive ranking. Rarely do you ever pick a third robot to score points and be offensive. I realize I could have been clearer with my original posts but I hope this has clarified most of it.

At the championship event when the division is ~100 teams deep, OPR from all previous competitions can be a valuable tool for the 2nd pick. At IRI when the event is ~70 deep, OPR might be valuable for the 2nd pick but probably won't for the 3rd pick (assuming they let captains pick 3).

[themccannman]

Originally Posted by efoote868

At the championship event when the division is ~100 teams deep, OPR from all previous competitions can be a valuable tool for the 2nd pick. At IRI when the event is ~70 deep, OPR might be valuable for the 2nd pick but probably won't for the 3rd pick (assuming they let captains pick 3).

I assume what you mean by second pick is the second alliance robot (the alliance captains first pick). I wouldn't consider using OPR for picking your third alliance robot unless you're in an unusual situation where you are looking for a high scoring third robot.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by themccannman

I assume what you mean by second pick is the second alliance robot (the alliance captains first pick). I wouldn't consider using OPR for picking your third alliance robot unless you're in an unusual situation where you are looking for a high scoring third robot.

The "3rd pick" was in reference to IRI, where alliance captains draft their own "backup bot," essentially forming 4-team alliances.

[themccannman]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

The "3rd pick" was in reference to IRI, where alliance captains draft their own "backup bot," essentially forming 4-team alliances.

Oh, I had no idea that they did that at IRI.

[efoote868]

Originally Posted by themccannman

I assume what you mean by second pick is the second alliance robot (the alliance captains first pick). I wouldn't consider using OPR for picking your third alliance robot unless you're in an unusual situation where you are looking for a high scoring third robot.

No, second pick means the 3rd member of the alliance.

I expect there to be a good number (maybe 10 or more?) of robots at the championship event that will find themselves in the top 8 in each division, even though they'll be middle of the pack in OPR.

Their strategy should be to pick the two best offensive robots they can, so that the alliance captain in effect becomes the 3rd bot for defense. OPR in this case would be a good tool for them to help rank teams.

Also, depending on the team's strengths, an alliance of 3 offensive capable bots could be more effective than an alliance of 2 offensive capable bots and 1 defensive only bot. If this is a team's strategy, OPR is a good tool to help rank teams (or at least identify 20-30 teams to focus on in scouting instead of 90+).

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by efoote868

Also, depending on the team's strengths, an alliance of 3 offensive capable bots could be more effective than an alliance of 2 offensive capable bots and 1 defensive only bot. If this is a team's strategy, OPR is a good tool to help rank teams (or at least identify 20-30 teams to focus on in scouting instead of 90+).

I suspect that match scheduling will be even more important than in recent years at CMP because of the nature of this year's game.
Both you and I are not top 10 material because we dont have a 7 disc auto mode (i.e. 2056, 1886, 987, etc.). However, like Boilermaker, if you put the 2 of us together against 1 of the elites with 2 defensive robots, we both know either alliances can still win. It was such a beauty everytime we paired up.
On a side note, we have defensive/offensive center discs for auto mode. We wont ever use it unless the time calls for it.