Teams that do not bag their robots

[OzzyArmas]

What should be done if an individual knows information about a team not bagging their Robot? What happens to the team that did not bag their Robot?

[connor.worley]

I would expect to be handled on a per-case basis. Did the team work on the robot? Were there other circumstances?

[nicholsjj]

Now a team should not have any reason that I'm aware of to bag their robot now that the season is over. Do some offseason events require it? If a team has an improper bag and tag for any reason(ie. not bagging their robot in the first place) then they are required to go through the noncomplience process in which I believe the LRI Head Ref and FTA(?) all have to understand the team's explination on way they didn't handle bag and tag properly. The team will then sometimes be assesed a time penealty in which they are not allowed to work on the robot. One of the most interesting stories that Razorback had was team 1912 having a very large hole in the bag around their drivetrain from shipping. We laughed about it and got them through the process quickly because they were honest about it and contacted the Regional as soon as the hole was discovered.

[Boe]

not the most relevant considering the original poster was from miami, but for the minnesota state championship in mid may your robot must have stayed bagged, but you are allowed 8 hours (i think) with the robot out of the bag before the event

[EricH]

Originally Posted by nicholsjj

Now a team should not have any reason that I'm aware of to bag their robot now that the season is over. Do some offseason events require it?

Yes, actually. MN State Championship requires it, or so I hear. I think there are a couple of other state championship events starting up that will/do require bagged robots. These are not FRC events, but they use the bag to prevent extra work on the robot before the event.

[CENTURION]

What exactly are you saying OzzyArmas? They didn't bag it at all? If so, they wouldn't pass inspection.

Or are you saying that they kept working on it after stop build, and then bagged it up just before the regional? (And falsified the paperwork?)

[OzzyArmas]

Sorry I delayed so much, I've been a little busy and couldn't find this post again.
The Robot was bagged, but then they asked for permission to un-bag it to do a "presentation" when in reality it was to keep working on it. This happened after build season was done and during competition season. The Robot was never finished on time.

[Steven Donow]

Originally Posted by OzzyArmas

Sorry I delayed so much, I've been a little busy and couldn't find this post again.
The Robot was bagged, but then they asked for permission to un-bag it to do a "presentation" when in reality it was to keep working on it. This happened after build season was done and during competition season. The Robot was never finished on time.

Interestingly enough, I believe FIRST has given exemptions for the case of presentation. There was a Q&A question about it, and it's handled on a case-by-case basis through emailing FIRST. Also I vaguely recall a story here about a team allowed to unbag at the request of a FIRST higherup(Woodie? Jon Dudas? Dean?) in order to present their robot...
Of course, these were all with the expressed consent of FIRST, and I assume some proof had to be provided that no work was done...

[OzzyArmas]

That's the thing. The "proof" was fake. According to the "proof", the robot was bagged thr same day. According to my proof and what I saw/know, it was bagged right before competition.

[EricH]

So submit your proof to FRC HQ. If there was a violation as severe as you are alleging, then FRC HQ needs to know about it (even if they do not want to know about it). They will presumably investigate and deal with it appropriately.

Coming here on Chief Delphi to comment on it does nothing official, and can raise some hackles. Go to FRC HQ with your evidence, whatever it is, and let them deal with it. I won't say it's not going to be difficult, but it is at least the professional thing to do, and quite possibly the gracious thing to do.

[Racer26]

Knowing the way the B&T system is constructed, I'm amazed that nobody else thinks this happens on a regular basis.

IMO HQ should require us to submit a digital photograph of the robot in its bag, with the numbered tag visible within 24 hours of bag day. Then its much harder to abuse the system.

As it is now, there is absolutely nothing (except y'know, morals) to stop a team from working on their robot right up until their competition, and bag the robot the night before, having a mentor sign the paper saying it was in on bag day.

[martin417]

Originally Posted by Racer26

Knowing the way the B&T system is constructed, I'm amazed that nobody else thinks this happens on a regular basis.

IMO HQ should require us to submit a digital photograph of the robot in its bag, with the numbered tag visible within 24 hours of bag day. Then its much harder to abuse the system.

As it is now, there is absolutely nothing (except y'know, morals) to stop a team from working on their robot right up until their competition, and bag the robot the night before, having a mentor sign the paper saying it was in on bag day.

You mean you think there are people in this world that would cheat? Shocking! Next you will be telling me that there are athletes out there using performance enhancing drugs, then lying about it. I just can't believe that would ever happen!

[CENTURION]

Originally Posted by martin417

You mean you think there are people in this world that would cheat? Shocking! Next you will be telling me that there are athletes out there using performance enhancing drugs, then lying about it. I just can't believe that would ever happen!

The FIRST culture is much different though. Personally, I don't have a problem trusting teams to properly B&T.

The mentors should know that they're really just cheating the students though.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

While B&T is checked by inspectors, there is several other people that will become involved in those cases especially when reported by the team or others. While we do not intend to keep teams from competing, each instance is a case unto it's own, requiring different responses. I can tell you for a fact that what appears to be, is rarely what actually occurred. For instance, several years ago a team was noted pulling a robot out of a crate after ship. As is often the case, the rumor mill started and the story became convoluted to the point that the team in question was being denigrated in public for no good reason. As it turns out, the team had been shipped something that looked like a robot but was not. Further investigation showed that the team had in fact followed all rules, shipping their robot on time. It was a simply a case of someone seeing something and jumping to conclusions. You have all seen instances of this rumor mill hurting other teams right here on CD over the years. GP carries over to passing or starting rumors without all the facts. Just don't do it. Give the team the benefit of the doubt.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by Racer26

Knowing the way the B&T system is constructed, I'm amazed that nobody else thinks this happens on a regular basis.

IMO HQ should require us to submit a digital photograph of the robot in its bag, with the numbered tag visible within 24 hours of bag day. Then its much harder to abuse the system.

As it is now, there is absolutely nothing (except y'know, morals) to stop a team from working on their robot right up until their competition, and bag the robot the night before, having a mentor sign the paper saying it was in on bag day.

If a team was willing to cheat and lie to get extra time to work on their robot, what makes you think they wouldn't be willing to do a little work in Photoshop?

Having teams submit a photo would add a surprisingly difficult step to getting robots unbagged - FIRST would have to set up a system to gather the photos on bag day, gather the photos after each event for those doing multiple events, manage to find a way to strictly enforce district teams that have unbag periods between events, send all of those pictures on to the LRI's at the events so they could go through them all, along with the forms and the actual tags on the bags to ensure each team was compliant.

That would be a massive, complicated undertaking that would still result in holes that could allow teams to cheat and lie to get extra time on their robot.

FIRST isn't like other sports. That's evident just walking through the pits and seeing teams helping each other. I'm willing to trust a vast majority of the teams to follow the rules in good faith.

If you come across a team (and have evidence) that is not following the bag and tag rules, pass that along to FIRST before the regional - after the regional is over, there isn't much we can do. Please don't wait until the regional starts to bring it up to the LRI... that will cause huge issues at the event that can more easily be dealt with beforehand (if we know about it before the event, we can go in with a decision from FIRST. If it's that serious of a violation and we learn about it at the event, it takes up time from the LRI, head ref, FTA, and possibly a call in to HQ to figure out what to do, when all of these people have other stuff they need to be doing to ensure your event is successful).

When it comes to Bag and Tag issues... a vast majority of them are minor issues. The only major issue I had was at MN State Champs last year, and we got that figured out pretty quickly for everyone involved.