The Chief Delphi opinion

[RoeeVulcan]

In this recent post:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...=116779&page=2

That made me think. Let's make this thread the official Chief Delphi opinion. It can sure help a lot of teams to read it.

Lets start with what i got from you:
-Casters are EVIL

[AlexD744]

I really don't like the idea of this kind of thread. While I do agree that there is, and seems to increasingly be, a favored opinion on a variety of topics on chief delphi. I don't think it is necessarily healthy. Maybe this is just me, but I feel like having a diversity of opinions is a GOOD thing. Hearing different perspectives and debating them as reasonable individuals is one of the most valuable ways of learning. If we just shut off this debate when regarding to "topics A through N" I feel like we will have stepped down a bad road, a road of "quasi-censorship."

Furthermore, I feel like this would only further alienate many new-comers, especially students, who are the primary (although certainly not only) ones that are here to learn. I would hate to learn from a system that just says, "No you're opinion isn't valid when you're here because a bunch of people have already decided that this is the right and only way when you're here." What if schools were run this way. What if your teachers refused to even hear your opinions because they always assumed they were right? What if, even though they were right, they never took the time to listen to you? Learning and mental development is a process, where hard questions must be tackled. I would hate for chief delphi to be a place where people were uncomfortable asking questions because "those questions have already been answered, and we don't want to hear your opinion if it differs from ours."

I understand what you are trying to accomplish, but many of the topics broached on these forums, technical and non-technical, are very much grey areas, and therefore warrant reasoned discussion. Please let's not do anything to endanger that discussion.

EDIT: Also, I want to make sure you know that I don't think you are trying to create this kind of culture, nor will this kind of culture necessarily arise from a thread like this. I just foresee this as an unintentional step toward that kind of culture, and that scares me. I hope that clarifies my post a bit.

[Steven Donow]

Originally Posted by AlexD744

I really don't like the idea of this kind of thread. While I do agree that there is, and seems to increasingly be, a favored opinion on a variety of topics on chief delphi. I don't think it is necessarily healthy. Maybe this is just me, but I feel like having a diversity of opinions is a GOOD thing. Hearing different perspectives and debating them as reasonable individuals is one of the most valuable ways of learning. If we just shut off this debate when regarding to "topics A through N" I feel like we will have stepped down a bad road, a road of "quasi-censorship."

Furthermore, I feel like this would only further alienate many new-comers, especially students, who are the primary (although certainly not only) ones that are here to learn. I would hate to learn from a system that just says, "No you're opinion isn't valid when you're here because a bunch of people have already decided that this is the right and only way when you're here." What if schools were run this way. What if your teachers refused to even hear your opinions because they always assumed they were right? What if, even though they were right, they never took the time to listen to you? Learning and mental development is a process, where hard questions must be tackled. I would hate for chief delphi to be a place where people were uncomfortable asking questions because "those questions have already been answered, and we don't want to hear your opinion if it differs from ours."

I understand what you are trying to accomplish, but many of the topics broached on these forums, technical and non-technical, are very much grey areas, and therefore warrant reasoned discussion. Please let's not do anything to endanger that discussion.

EDIT: Also, I want to make sure you know that I don't think you are trying to create this kind of culture, nor will this kind of culture necessarily arise from a thread like this. I just foresee this as an unintentional step toward that kind of culture, and that scares me. I hope that clarifies my post a bit.

Yeah, a post like this will only further the development of a Chief Delphi Hivemind opinion, that new people to the site will feel like they must abide by or fear being lynched by mobs when an intelligent discussion is being had.

[Kimmeh]

Perhaps we could turn this into a constructive thread where we highlight some of the more prevalent stereotypes (or things that stall a discussion) that we've come across? Use it to see how others see CD and maybe work to change that?

However, I worry that it may become a case of someone saying something like “Ahhhhh, on HOT Team the mentors build the robot, and their coach is annoying.”* and the next 2 pages of a thread repeatedly explaining how none of that is true.


* -Karthik (Effective FIRST Strategies for Design and Competition)

[pfreivald]

Given the snide vitriol that can come out of a discussion of mecanum wheels, I don't think it's a good idea to start putting forth group opinions as if consensus somehow makes people right.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

In my personal opinion (not attached to any team or anything here) Chief Delphi's functions and attitudes since Chief Delphi the team merged has been stuck in a rut not unlike the "Eternal September". Essentially, events where a few key members from older days began making fewer posts here and an influx of new members happened at the same time. Some of the new members, it seems, formed into some weird collective of group-thought. While it often shares widely-held beliefs of the community at large, it can execute methods some would deem uncouth at its best and detrimental to community progress at its worst.

I'm going to avoid eating my own tail by further belaboring the point but I'll just say that in my opinion something like this is not only unwarranted, but also potentially detrimental to the community at large. I don't go talk to all of my friends to try to reach nay consensus on opinions because despite disagreement, most people are pretty cool with free thought.

[Justin Montois]

I will agree that people are scared to post on Chief Delphi, but we should be focusing on why they are scared to post. If the answer truly is they feel intimidated then perhaps it's because they aren't confident enough in their response and perhaps shouldn't post.

If I am a new student and don't have the experience to weigh in on something that others are more knowledgeable about then that student probably shouldn't post. I don't go into the programming thread and give my opinion because I have no experience in that area.

More than half of my posts have come in the past 3 years and my register date is in 2005. I did a lot of reading and gained experience before I started posting more.

We should go a little easier on new posters but they have a responsibility as well to not post beyond their experience because when they do its obvious

[Siri]

Originally Posted by Justin Montois

I will agree that people are scared to post on Chief Delphi, but we should be focusing on why they are scared to post. If the answer truly is they feel intimidated then perhaps it's because they aren't confident enough in their response and perhaps shouldn't post.

If I am a new student and don't have the experience to weigh in on something that others are more knowledgeable about then that student probably shouldn't post. I don't go into the programming thread and give my opinion because I have no experience in that area.

More than half of my posts have come in the past 3 years and my register date is in 2004. I did a lot of reading and gained experience before I started posting more.

We should go a little easier on new posters but they have a responsibility as well to not post beyond their experience because when they do its obvious

While I agree with your sentiment--and went through the same thing--it's my understanding that the referenced intimidation is more about asking questions than providing answers. This is a very serious problem: we shouldn't be chasing away well-meaning students (or mentors) that want to ask and learn. Being too intimidated to answer is also a concern, particularly if people don't feel comfortable giving their honest opinions. (Technical facts is a bit of a different story, unless their lack of self-confidence is incorrect and/or CD-caused.) Intimidation against asking questions may be our bigger flaw, though.

[Kims Robot]

Originally Posted by Siri

This is a very serious problem: we shouldn't be chasing away well-meaning students (or mentors) that want to ask and learn. ... Intimidation against asking questions may be our bigger flaw, though.

Or creating threads? A passionate kid, with 25 posts from another country creates this thread and almost immediately gets attacked. I don't get it. I'd love to see the community get back to a fun open minded brainstorming - not everything someone does needs to devolve into an argument - in my mind thats why these students are intimidated.

Originally Posted by Justin Montois

I will agree that people are scared to post on Chief Delphi, but we should be focusing on why they are scared to post.

We should go a little easier on new posters but they have a responsibility as well to not post beyond their experience because when they do its obvious

I feel like I missed something here. I read the OP, I read the referenced post (ok the referenced was maybe leaning a bit more controversial), but I honestly don't get what is so controversial about this thread.

I saw it more as a light hearted attempt to gather up some "quick opinions", that all of us could choose to take with a grain of salt (or overreact to as it seems to be).
Things like...
- Set Screws Stink
- Lead Screws Are Tough to Use Well
- Iterate as Much as you Can
- Learn from Past Seasons Designs
- Sheet Metal and Rivets can lighten a design
- Speed Controllers Hate Metal Shavings
- Ones and Zeros can be heavy!
- Potentiometers often require precision placement
- Battery Cables are NOT handles
- Safety Glasses are NOT forehead protectors
- Turrets should only be used when necessary
- KISS

etc etc...

I dunno, maybe I'm just not in attack mode these days, or I really seriously missed something, but I think this thread could have been light hearted and fun.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by Kims Robot

Or creating threads? A passionate kid, with 25 posts from another country creates this thread and almost immediately gets attacked. I don't get it. I'd love to see the community get back to a fun open minded brainstorming - not everything someone does needs to devolve into an argument - in my mind thats why these students are intimidated.

Agreed! (Hi RoeeVulcan!) So let me give this a shot:

- Set Screws Stink
...But sometimes it's really hard to KISS around them. We still have one on our swerve modules because the CIM's shaft is so short.

- Lead Screws Are Tough to Use Well
...Tough, but sometimes worth it! (don't have examples either way, myself...)

- Iterate as Much as you Can
...Hard to argue with that one. Maybe just be careful that what you "can" isn't pushing yourself too far

- Learn from Past Seasons Designs
...The successes and the failures (ok, not so much a counter-example)

- Sheet Metal and Rivets can lighten a design
...And if you rough CAD it and ask for advice, people can help you keep it from becoming a light pile or wrinkled sheet metal!

- Speed Controllers Hate Metal Shavings
...Ok, yeah.

- Ones and Zeros can be heavy!
...But zeros are lighter than ones!

- Potentiometers often require precision placement
...Not sure about anyone else, but we love flexible couplings. They work great, and the only time we've ever broken them is when we hard-mounted one to an otherwise cantilevered axle. (Well, and on our swerve display, but kids go crazy on that thing )

- Battery Cables are NOT handles
...I suppose the most useful thing I could do is link to this and this

- Safety Glasses are NOT forehead protectors
...Whenever I say this, there's only one kid that points out the time when they've actually protected their forehead. I've had it happen, too. So now anyone who wants to is free to wear them on their forehead...and another pair on their eyes. It's an interesting fashion statement.

- Turrets should only be used when necessary
...I won't delve to deep into this one, but I think it presents a good place for links to very successful turrets. (We don't so much ourselves...swerve's enough work for us!)

- KISS
...but not simpler ("Everything should be as simple as it can be, but not simpler")

[DonRotolo]

Ah. For every opinion, there is a differing opinion. And, depending on the circumstances they are often both right.

I don't see many universal truths that should be recorded, since some impressionable kid might believe there are no alternatives. Me, I like to see constructive arguments, because everyone learns. Stating something as a fact quashes those discussions.

All of us are smarter than any of us.

Some facts that possibly might fit:

• Read and follow the rules carefully.
• Search before you post.
• Opinions on CD are not rules; ask on the official FRC Q&A forum.
• If you are stating an opinion, make that clear. If it is a fact, show your source.

[simplyTired]

I think what a lot of people here on this site don’t entirely get is the perspective of teams that aren’t well represented here. A lot of teams and people simply say “ask the elite teams how they work and then work really hard to get to their level.” After almost 6 years of FRC experience, I have to say that it’s not quite this simple as many people here make it out to be. Coming from a team that repeatedly finds itself struggling to compete successfully and make eliminations, it becomes more and more difficult to motivate students. I’ve had some students come in with extremely bright outlooks and such great ambitions on how the team can perform, but over the course of 4 years of being constantly worn out from the build season and then broken down during competitions, many want little to nothing to do with FIRST after it is all over. I’ve pushed kids to apply for more and more grants and talk to more companies about sponsorships, but it’s difficult to acquire new sponsors or even retain old ones when you can’t compete on the same level as many teams. Even with mentors, many of the mentors that we meet are discouraged by our performance and eventually move on after just one year of commitment. I think there is something to be said about working to attain a goal and striving for a new level, and I don’t suggest that the “elite” teams are doing anything unfair, I just think that this idea that anyone can get to that level is a bit ignorant of the struggles that some teams face year after year.

Originally Posted by Kimmeh

Perhaps we could turn this into a constructive thread where we highlight some of the more prevalent stereotypes (or things that stall a discussion) that we've come across? Use it to see how others see CD and maybe work to change that?

However, I worry that it may become a case of someone saying something like “Ahhhhh, on HOT Team the mentors build the robot, and their coach is annoying.”* and the next 2 pages of a thread repeatedly explaining how none of that is true.


* -Karthik (Effective FIRST Strategies for Design and Competition)

I like this.

Constructive idea: Unless the game is similar to 2009, I think it's beneficial for all teams to have at least 4 CIM motors in their drivetrain.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by Kimmeh

Perhaps we could turn this into a constructive thread where we highlight some of the more prevalent stereotypes (or things that stall a discussion) that we've come across? Use it to see how others see CD and maybe work to change that?

However, I worry that it may become a case of someone saying something like “Ahhhhh, on HOT Team the mentors build the robot, and their coach is annoying.”* and the next 2 pages of a thread repeatedly explaining how none of that is true.


* -Karthik (Effective FIRST Strategies for Design and Competition)

One positive approach might be to lay out the thread as a point-counter point. No extended arguing in-house, just adding potential counter-examples to "conventional wisdom". If we did it right, it might actually serve to illustrate--and nurture--the non-hivemind side of CD. Something like:

Remark: casters are EVIL
Counter-example: It looks like 93 made finals at the 2002 championship on a creatively used caster, and Buzz won the 2001 New England Regional.


That said, I agree with the concerns raised. It's dangerous territory; this is only the way I'd recommend approaching it if we did keep the thread open.

[Aren Siekmeier]

Originally Posted by AlexD744

I really don't like the idea of this kind of thread. While I do agree that there is, and seems to increasingly be, a favored opinion on a variety of topics on chief delphi. I don't think it is necessarily healthy. Maybe this is just me, but I feel like having a diversity of opinions is a GOOD thing. Hearing different perspectives and debating them as reasonable individuals is one of the most valuable ways of learning. If we just shut off this debate when regarding to "topics A through N" I feel like we will have stepped down a bad road, a road of "quasi-censorship."

Furthermore, I feel like this would only further alienate many new-comers, especially students, who are the primary (although certainly not only) ones that are here to learn. I would hate to learn from a system that just says, "No you're opinion isn't valid when you're here because a bunch of people have already decided that this is the right and only way when you're here." What if schools were run this way. What if your teachers refused to even hear your opinions because they always assumed they were right? What if, even though they were right, they never took the time to listen to you? Learning and mental development is a process, where hard questions must be tackled. I would hate for chief delphi to be a place where people were uncomfortable asking questions because "those questions have already been answered, and we don't want to hear your opinion if it differs from ours."

I understand what you are trying to accomplish, but many of the topics broached on these forums, technical and non-technical, are very much grey areas, and therefore warrant reasoned discussion. Please let's not do anything to endanger that discussion.

EDIT: Also, I want to make sure you know that I don't think you are trying to create this kind of culture, nor will this kind of culture necessarily arise from a thread like this. I just foresee this as an unintentional step toward that kind of culture, and that scares me. I hope that clarifies my post a bit.

Is this perhaps the Chief Delphi opinion then?