"Dud" robots

[gyroscopeRaptor]

The most concerning part of this game for me is the potential for one mistake to completely shut down a team. Say a robot during autonomous is loaded with its ball, but the autonomous malfunctions and the robot rams into the wall, loosening all the PWMs, and trapping the ball on board. This team would never have their cycles begin and be shut out of any points or even showing the scouts their abilities.

In previous years you would still be able to play with a robot down, but you are 100% sunk if the ball is trapped.

**edit - Sorry, this is only a suggestion ** There is a solution - if a robot is stuck with a ball inside, and that robot is E-stopped, then another ball is put into play.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by gyroscopeRaptor

There is a solution - if a robot is stuck with a ball inside, and that robot is E-stopped, then another ball is put into play.

Where is that in the rules?

Sorry, but I couldn't find it earlier when I was looking through and reading. Much as I'd love for that to be the case, I'm thinking right now that it's going to be a case of partner robots trying to free the ball from the robot. Like I said, I'd love for that to be the solution.

[gyroscopeRaptor]

Originally Posted by EricH

Where is that in the rules?

Sorry, but I couldn't find it earlier when I was looking through and reading. Much as I'd love for that to be the case, I'm thinking right now that it's going to be a case of partner robots trying to free the ball from the robot. Like I said, I'd love for that to be the solution.

That was a suggestion.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by gyroscopeRaptor

That was a suggestion.

I figured--just the way it was phrased originally.

I'd be on-board with that solution--that is, if a ball is on the field but stuck on an inoperable* robot or other object, a manual override to the system would allow a replacement.


*For clarity's sake, I'll define "inoperable" as: Can neither eject the ball nor drive around due to failure of either mechanical systems or control systems, OR disabled by FMS or E-stop for any reason. In layman's terms, the ball is STUCK.

[Marc S.]

Another concern is that with only one ball on the field and statistically a lot of teams who won't be fast enough to do successful passes with the faster caliber teams, I see a lot of teams not getting the chance to do anything more than defense.

Ex, a team that can score goals fast enough to win by themselves won't be willing to let a partner take all match just to do one cycle. In the past there were enough game elements for any team to take as long as they want with, with only one though....

[Racer26]

Originally Posted by Marc S.

Another concern is that with only one ball on the field and statistically a lot of teams who won't be fast enough to do successful passes with the faster caliber teams, I see a lot of teams not getting the chance to do anything more than defense.

Ex, a team that can score goals fast enough to win by themselves won't be willing to let a partner take all match just to do one cycle. In the past there were enough game elements for any team to take as long as they want with, with only one though....

THIS is a humongous part of why I'm not a fan of Aerial Assist on first analysis.

Seems to me the elite tier robots should easily be able to turn 150ish points on their own (20 pts [truss toss +high goal] x 6 cycles + 25 auto). Especially so if they have two defenders clearing the road for them on this wide open field. Total number of cycles is unlikely to change much with assisting, if anything going down slightly.

Adding one assist per cycle, brings the cycle points to 30. If doing so 4 times costs you 2 solo-cycle time periods (going from 6 cycles to 4 in a match), you have no net gain.

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by Racer26

THIS is a humongous part of why I'm not a fan of Aerial Assist on first analysis.

Seems to me the elite tier robots should easily be able to turn 150ish points on their own (20 pts [truss toss +high goal] x 6 cycles + 25 auto). Especially so if they have two defenders clearing the road for them on this wide open field. Total number of cycles is unlikely to change much with assisting, if anything going down slightly.

Adding one assist per cycle, brings the cycle points to 30. If doing so 4 times costs you 2 solo-cycle time periods (going from 6 cycles to 4 in a match), you have no net gain.

What if you put one robot playing defense on this single scorer, then pass with the other two? If you can't beat the single robot's score with that, then do you really deserve to win?

[Racer26]

Originally Posted by bduddy

What if you put one robot playing defense on this single scorer, then pass with the other two? If you can't beat the single robot's score with that, then do you really deserve to win?

How will your one defensive robot do anything when the solo scorer has two defensive robots to clear the way?

Also, scoring with assists will be slower. If you can do 6 solo cycles, or 4 cycles with 1 assist, there is no difference in net score.

[MichaelBick]

Originally Posted by Racer26

THIS is a humongous part of why I'm not a fan of Aerial Assist on first analysis.

Seems to me the elite tier robots should easily be able to turn 150ish points on their own (20 pts [truss toss +high goal] x 6 cycles + 25 auto). Especially so if they have two defenders clearing the road for them on this wide open field. Total number of cycles is unlikely to change much with assisting, if anything going down slightly.

Adding one assist per cycle, brings the cycle points to 30. If doing so 4 times costs you 2 solo-cycle time periods (going from 6 cycles to 4 in a match), you have no net gain.

Assists are one of the most important parts of the game, for one simple reason. The first seeding tiebreaker is based on assist points.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Racer26

THIS is a humongous part of why I'm not a fan of Aerial Assist on first analysis.

Seems to me the elite tier robots should easily be able to turn 150ish points on their own (20 pts [truss toss +high goal] x 6 cycles + 25 auto). Especially so if they have two defenders clearing the road for them on this wide open field. Total number of cycles is unlikely to change much with assisting, if anything going down slightly.

Adding one assist per cycle, brings the cycle points to 30. If doing so 4 times costs you 2 solo-cycle time periods (going from 6 cycles to 4 in a match), you have no net gain.

Do you really believe that a robot will consistently and repeatably be able to retrieve the inbound pass, drive to the truss, toss the ball over the truss, retrieve the (now bouncing) ball, drive to a scoring position, shoot and score in the high goal, and get back to retrieve another inbounds pass in less than 25 seconds?

I think you are, very much, overestimating most teams capabilities. In the end, there may be 1 or 2 teams in all of FIRST that might be able to pull this off on the competition field, but I doubt it.

[dubiousSwain]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

Do you really believe that a robot will consistently and repeatably be able to retrieve the inbound pass, drive to the truss, toss the ball over the truss, retrieve the (now bouncing) ball, drive to a scoring position, shoot and score in the high goal, and get back to retrieve another inbounds pass in less than 25 seconds?

I think you are, very much, overestimating most teams capabilities. In the end, there may be 1 or 2 teams in all of FIRST that might be able to pull this off on the competition field, but I doubt it.

If i told you last year that someone could 3rd level climb in 6.5 seconds, would you believe me?

[Racer26]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

Do you really believe that a robot will consistently and repeatably be able to retrieve the inbound pass, drive to the truss, toss the ball over the truss, retrieve the (now bouncing) ball, drive to a scoring position, shoot and score in the high goal, and get back to retrieve another inbounds pass in less than 25 seconds?

I think you are, very much, overestimating most teams capabilities. In the end, there may be 1 or 2 teams in all of FIRST that might be able to pull this off on the competition field, but I doubt it.

Looking at several videos of 1114 in 2008, they were able to hurdle 6-7 times in teleop fairly consistently, on a crowded overdrive field. I see no reason an elite level robot could not do a similar number of cycles in 2014.

[ninjosh97]

Originally Posted by Racer26

Looking at several videos of 1114 in 2008, they were able to hurdle 6-7 times in teleop fairly consistently, on a crowded overdrive field. I see no reason an elite level robot could not do a similar number of cycles in 2014.

Also, check out this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JElxKBOT958
This team was able to hurdle AND catch the ball, without it ever touching the floor.

I realize something like this wouldn't get you the catch points, but would still get you the truss points.

I could see some teams doing something like this.

[pfreivald]

Originally Posted by Racer26

Looking at several videos of 1114 in 2008, they were able to hurdle 6-7 times in teleop fairly consistently, on a crowded overdrive field. I see no reason an elite level robot could not do a similar number of cycles in 2014.

Defense was pretty much not allowed in Overdrive, and after you hurdled the ball it was right in front of you again--you didn't have to have it inbounded at the other end of the field.

I'm thinking the super-elite teams will probably be able to do 4-5 cycles unassisted with no defense on them. We'll see if that estimate changes as the build season progresses.

[Racer26]

Originally Posted by pfreivald

Defense was pretty much not allowed in Overdrive, and after you hurdled the ball it was right in front of you again--you didn't have to have it inbounded at the other end of the field.

I'm thinking the super-elite teams will probably be able to do 4-5 cycles unassisted with no defense on them. We'll see if that estimate changes as the build season progresses.

After you truss toss it, it will be right in front of you, just like overdrive, and like overdrive, you have to return to the other end of the field to score again. There's an extra ball acquisition per cycle, but it doesn't seem unreasonable that 6 will be possible by the elite. Remember, 2008 was 6 years ago. All of those elite teams have learned a lot in the intervening time about how to build better robots too.