The message FIRST is trying to send... and we should hear...

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Posted by colleen - T190 at 2/2/2001 3:42 AM EST


Engineer on team #190, Gompei, from Massachusetts Academy of Math and Science and WPI.



Don't be fooled.. the "time of post" is correct.. it's way to early in the morning.. and i've been IMing with anton for wwaaaay too long :-)

But it has prompted me to post something I have been thinking about for a while... it extends through a couple different planes of FIRST and can generally be applied to ALL of us..

As much as I think I dislike this year's game, I really think there is a lesson embedded in it that many of us need to step back and learn. We were taught it back in kindgarten...

"Work together.. play nice.. if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.."

In all honesty... my FIRST experiences dating from 96 to 99 were wonderful.. there were issues.. but they always got worked out... I took part of the beginnings of this wonderful site and got in touch with many great people who gave advice and helped each other out..

2000 was the worst... suddenly people were soooo craved for attention.. for credit.. for one ups on other teams and people.. that it really just became a big melting pot of politics than a FIRST community.. since when were FIRST people liars or cheaters.. since when was it less important to make something happen than it was to get credit for it...?

And I thought things would change.. I find myself on a wonderful team that is not shy of any issues but is still, to me, very focused on the proper goals.. and we have fun.. (We don't make bad parts, we make masterpieces for the hampster playground)...

But still I think the reminents live on.. just looking at a lot of the postings recently.. stat pages..etc.. what's going on??

And these discussions regarding strategy things.. this one is better.. no you should use this one.. no this.. no mine.. etc..

I think it's wonderful that we all want to do great.. but we all have to make sure we are trying to great for the common good and not just to say "everyone chose my way"... obviously..it takes a little discussion and compromise to get there.. but we can do that..

My point-- if I have one... some much lately does it seem that people want things done so their name/team/group name can go on it and less cause it's a good thing... it impedes so much on processes of improvment it's unbelievable..

So all I can say.. is I hope everyone.. on every team.. in every group can at least hear the message first is trying to send.. and teams like 47 have done wonders to acheive in things like these forums..

We're not competing against each other... we're competing together as a means to acheive a higher goal.. and we will reach our detination much quicker if we use each other as steps rather than each making our own ladder to try and get their before everyone else..

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Posted by Chris Hibner at 2/2/2001 7:06 AM EST


Coach on team #308, Walled Lake Monster, from Walled Lake Schools and TRW Automotive Electronics.


In Reply to: The message FIRST is trying to send... and we should hear...
Posted by colleen - T190 on 2/2/2001 3:42 AM EST:



: since when was it less important to make something happen than it was to get credit for it...?

Let me tell you when: 1999 - the year alliances were introduced. The problem is that teams must pick alliance partners. Therefore, everyone that doesn't qualify must try to make a case for their team to be chosen. To do this, it is important that they give some proof that they are a worthy partner. Therefore, if teams want to be chosen, they must take credit for as much as possible so that they prove themselves as a worthy team.

What you're seeing is that people are gettting better at playing the political game. In 1999, the politics weren't that bad since this aspect was new to teams. In 2000 (after everyone learned their lessons from 1999) most teams realized that they would need a pretty good sales campaign if they wanted to be in the finals; thus, the rise of the crazy political game last year. As long as we choose alliances in FIRST, the politics will continue (and most likely become more involved).

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Posted by Ernie P at 2/3/2001 10:11 AM EST


Engineer on team #548, RoboStangs, from Northville High School and Robert Bosch.


In Reply to: I agree, however...
Posted by Chris Hibner on 2/2/2001 7:06 AM EST:



Hi,
You guys aren't actually listening to this person ... he used to play drums in a "Rock Band"!!!.... He's the kinda guy your parents warned you about ....... My God man ... he doesn't floss ......... (Just kidding Chris man)

On a more serious note: In "the real world" there are two paths you can take:
A) Learn and deal with the politics of dancing
b) Avoid the politics and let your work speak for you

Both will work, but the truely effective person is able to master the balance of both. Politics can be an effective tool toward meeting your goals.

Remember the 4 priciples of Toltec wisdom:
1) Be impecable with your word
2) Don't take anything personally
3) Don't assume anything
4) Always do your best

Thanx, Ernie "the Zen man" P


: : since when was it less important to make something happen than it was to get credit for it...?

: Let me tell you when: 1999 - the year alliances were introduced. The problem is that teams must pick alliance partners. Therefore, everyone that doesn't qualify must try to make a case for their team to be chosen. To do this, it is important that they give some proof that they are a worthy partner. Therefore, if teams want to be chosen, they must take credit for as much as possible so that they prove themselves as a worthy team.

: What you're seeing is that people are gettting better at playing the political game. In 1999, the politics weren't that bad since this aspect was new to teams. In 2000 (after everyone learned their lessons from 1999) most teams realized that they would need a pretty good sales campaign if they wanted to be in the finals; thus, the rise of the crazy political game last year. As long as we choose alliances in FIRST, the politics will continue (and most likely become more involved).

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Posted by Josh at 2/3/2001 4:38 PM EST


Engineer on team #419, Rambots, from Wentworth Institute of Technology.


In Reply to: For the love of ... don't listen to this man!!!
Posted by Ernie P on 2/3/2001 10:11 AM EST:



The example i like to look at for this is:

Greenspan, Alan Greenspan...

He is probably the most powerful man in the United States. The economy will skyrocket or plumit on his word alone, but he brings virtually NO politics into his job...

Not so, you say? oh, but it is. When was the last time you saw alan greenspan do an interview with reporters? never, he doesn't do them for fear of politics. When was the last time he did anything because congress and the president wanted him to? Never, he does what he and the committee think is best for the nation, weather or not politics agree. If only more people worked that way, politics wouldn't be so $@#$@#$@#$@# destructive in this country.

If FIRST worked that way, we wouldn't be doing have the stuff we do, we'd be doing what is best for the FIRST community, and the entire arena would benefit.

Josh
Team 419
"Wha?"

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Posted by Chris Hibner at 2/5/2001 8:58 AM EST


Coach on team #308, Walled Lake Monster, from Walled Lake Schools and TRW Automotive Electronics.


In Reply to: For the love of ... don't listen to this man!!!
Posted by Ernie P on 2/3/2001 10:11 AM EST:



: Hi,
: You guys aren't actually listening to this person ... he used to play drums in a "Rock Band"!!!.... He's the kinda guy your parents warned you about ....... My God man ... he doesn't floss ......... (Just kidding Chris man)

Thanks, Ernie. Spoken like a true bass player -- sick of being "felt but not heard". (Just kidding.)

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Posted by Jessica Boucher at 2/2/2001 3:35 PM EST


Student on team #237, Sie-H2O-Bots, from Watertown High School and Eastern Awning Systems & The Siemon Company.


In Reply to: The message FIRST is trying to send... and we should hear...
Posted by colleen - T190 on 2/2/2001 3:42 AM EST:



Dig deeper....

: In all honesty... my FIRST experiences dating from 96 to 99 were wonderful.. there were issues.. but they always got worked out... I took part of the beginnings of this wonderful site and got in touch with many great people who gave advice and helped each other out..

But.....you were also a high schooler....so your picture says. From what I can percieve, there is a HUGE difference between being a high-school participant and a college participant. Maybe the change had a disillusioning effect?

: 2000 was the worst... suddenly people were soooo craved for attention.. for credit.. for one ups on other teams and people.. that it really just became a big melting pot of politics than a FIRST community.. since when were FIRST people liars or cheaters.. since when was it less important to make something happen than it was to get credit for it...?

Also, you switched teams in 2000. In statistics, the question would be asked: are you looking at the sample (in this case, your team) or at the population (all of FIRST)?

I agree that the craving grew in 2000, but its human nature to crave attention (trust me, I see it all the time with the adults and the students). With 2000 came the reality that the alliances were here to stay. Because of that, it forced us to shine in other areas...or as Chris said, "sell" the team.

And, there are a lot of teams pressured to perform. Teams that aren't as well endowed are struggling to make ends meet, and could lose their funding in a moment...but, if they came home with an award, the battle becomes easier because with an award comes publicity, with publicity comes the money.
The publicity won't come any other way...unless the nation as a whole realizes it otherwise, FIRST will always be a "special interest" story...at WHS, for instance, during the scandal between a teacher and a female student, we didn't even have to tell the local stations, and we had all 3 stations swarming the gates, and the news chopper hovering the school. But we have to beg and plead for even one of them to come to look at the robot.

And what ISN'T political now? People make livings off of politics. Sports has politics. Theatre has politics. Education has politics. Medecine has politics. Religion has politics. Unfortunately, FIRST was destined to become infused by it eventually.

Luckily, FIRST forces itself to evolve annually. Maybe it will change. But, for now, it is a reality. So, why not make the best of it and look at the positives of it being political? Why not think of the robot's strategy as the strategy inside the larger strategy? Maybe I've written too much, but...I think the politics are what makes it so "real world"...because it is out there, and needs to be dealt with by everyone.

-Jessica B, #237

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Posted by Josh at 2/2/2001 5:53 PM EST


Engineer on team #419, Rambots, from Wentworth Institute of Technology.


In Reply to: But is that the message?
Posted by Jessica Boucher on 2/2/2001 3:35 PM EST:



isn't it funny how politics always manages to rip apart everything good? just a thought for you...but maybe, just maybe, if we try hard enough to work together on this thing, that we have a chance, though slim, that we migh possibly be able to kill this political infestation before it grows and devours this whole thing? I would hate for this to go the way of so many other great games just because instead of working together and having fun, we are all trying to blast eachother. FIRST will keep changing but the politics always stay the same...no matter what they infect.

Josh
Team 419
"Wha?"

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Posted by colleen - T190 at 2/2/2001 6:03 PM EST


Engineer on team #190, Gompei, from Massachusetts Academy of Math and Science and WPI.


In Reply to: Re: But is that the message?
Posted by Josh on 2/2/2001 5:53 PM EST:



I think Josh is the only one who understands what I meant by this... maybe from experience...

I don't mean people taking credit for good robots or in matches, doing well.. I mean people in general.. more individual than teams... trying to one-up each other or really missing the point of FIRST...

Working against instead of with each other.. it's ridiculous.. and maybe those who haven't gotten wrapped (unforunately) into this petty and ridiculious issues can't understand it..

Could be.. who knows... but starting in January2K through the summer I was stuck with this politics from individuals AND teams.. it was too bad and really left a sour taste about FIRST in my mouth

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Posted by Jessica Boucher at 2/2/2001 6:24 PM EST


Student on team #237, Sie-H2O-Bots, from Watertown High School and Eastern Awning Systems & The Siemon Company.


In Reply to: Josh got what i mean
Posted by colleen - T190 on 2/2/2001 6:03 PM EST:



: Could be.. who knows... but starting in January2K through the summer I was stuck with this politics from individuals AND teams.. it was too bad and really left a sour taste about FIRST in my mouth

Then why do you stay? Think about that, it's usually the best antidote for me when I feel like that.

-Jessica B, #237

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Posted by Anton Abaya at 2/3/2001 12:47 AM EST


Coach on team #419, Rambots, from UMass Boston / BC High and NONE AT THE MOMENT! .


In Reply to: The message FIRST is trying to send... and we should hear...
Posted by colleen - T190 on 2/2/2001 3:42 AM EST:



if you were to put a bunch of crabs in a tank, they make an effort to get out of the tank but as soon as one of them reaches the top, another crab below will pull them down.

the point i am trying to make is that my FIRST experience has always been nice really give or take a few crabs. i'm the team leader of Rambots....and that to me means bringing out the best in the team. Bringing out the leaders of the team, using the stregths of the team, and sorting out the talents and skills of the students. in the process of that, i have put myself in the spotlight, one of high profile and continuing enthusiasm.

all i can really say is this. I am out to make the most out of my team and myself. I am not out to destroy other people, teams, or pull them down. I'd even help people out to get to the spotlight..... But I also FIRMLY believe that credit belongs to the right places.

In my experience in FIRST, there have been many occurrences of "original" ideas stolen by others. It is an unfortunate occurrence and often leads to trouble. Why these people do it? How can we know? All I can say is there really is no way for us to stop them and competition really is human nature.

No matter how much we try not to compete and be gracious and professional, we live in a culture with a need to compete and be the strongest of them all. It's biological and there's nothing we can do about those who want the spotlight so bad.

I guess the last thing I can say is if we work hard to help each other out, then all will be good. But if you have too much to lose (ego wise) to help another person attain his/her spotlight, then dont bother and make your own path first. that way, ideas wont be stolen, egos wont be bashed, and teams wont die.

to hell with crabs, we're human...

-anton

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Posted by Robby at 2/3/2001 5:16 AM EST


Other on team #108, The SigmaC@Ts, from AIFL and Motorola.


In Reply to: the crab mentality...
Posted by Anton Abaya on 2/3/2001 12:47 AM EST:



Hmm... sounds a lot like "Lobster Bucket" by The Aquabats. Break out your napster accounts an check it out. Possible new theme.

But back on track, I dont know quite where to stand with this topic. It's touchy. I think Colleen had some great points, as well as Jessica and others.

For me I'm all for sharing ideas and credit. Why? Because I beleive in my ability to produce new ones and go on to other things. I know that I can not produce everything that is in my head by myself and that some things I just have to let go of.

There are a ton of FIRST ideas I would love to see out there, but ya know what? I havent shared most of them because I am still afraid of someone going out and doing them. But the thing I think I am afraid of mostly is thier output not being what my vision is.

I would like to compare mine and everyone elses fears to Dean and IT. We dont want our ideas stolen, yet we want everyone to know about them. Or something. It's early, I'm at work, and I've lost that point. Oh, and Im not putting our ideas on the same level.

Perhaps there needs to be a FIRST intellectual property page. Somewhere like delphion.com for us to share our ideas, but have the original credits go to the originators. Some form of copyrighting without so much legal mumbo jumbo.

We already have SharingFIRST. Perhaps we could make that it. Perhaps we need a whole new website. If no one jumps on it, I just may. Just remember, that gets the FIRST first intellectual property memo! B^P

-Robby O
oshortwan@hotmail.com
FIRSTanimators Moderator
Team 108 Animation Mentor