Filling Robot Pneumatic Systems

[Tom Line]

This year, we will be using a fair amount of pneumatics. With multiple storage tanks the fill time using the viaair compressor is problematic.

What unique and legal method of filling high-volume pneumatic storage have you come up with?

I'm currently considering some type of tank 'storage' farm made of cots components that can be filled during our down periods with the robot compressor. We can use the stored air to fill the robot during the quick turn around matches of the playoffs.

[Jimmy Nichols]

Originally Posted by Tom Line

This year, we will be using a fair amount of pneumatics. With multiple storage tanks the fill time using the viaair compressor is problematic.

What unique and legal method of filling high-volume pneumatic storage have you come up with?

I'm currently considering some type of tank 'storage' farm made of cots components that can be filled during our down periods with the robot compressor. We can use the stored air to fill the robot during the quick turn around matches of the playoffs.

Last year we designed our storage system to fill at the duty cycle of the Viair compressor. We would pre-charge well before the match so that the compressor would not turn on as much during the match. We calculated the amount of air needed, approximating how many times we would actuate each of our cylinders.

An option if your storage exceeds the duty cycle would be to pre-charge up to the duty cycle, pause and then continue pre-charging. This assumes you have enough time in between matches.

[Nate Laverdure]

You can use the attached formulas to calculate the stored energy in your tank farm, and thus evaluate the risks involved with your design. These formulas assume that the stored pressurized gas expands isentropically and instantaneously to atmosphere.

For example, say you have a 1 cubic foot container of air pressurized to 120 psig. If a catastrophic failure occurred to the container, the rapid expansion of the pressurized air could release 31 kJ to the atmosphere. There could be physiological effects (eardrum rupture, low-velocity impact from shrapnel) within a 7.5 ft radius around the container.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by Nate Laverdure

For example, say you have a 1 cubic foot container of air pressurized to 120 psig. If a catastrophic failure occurred to the container, the rapid expansion of the pressurized air could release 31 kJ to the atmosphere. There could be physiological effects (eardrum rupture, low-velocity impact from shrapnel) within a 7.5 ft radius around the container.

To give you a practical example of how much energy that is... an ICD (Internal Cardiac Defibrillator) uses around 35J (1000 times less energy) to shock a heart, and patients complain that it "feels like being kicked in the chest by a horse". Of course, that shock probably saved their lives, so it's a pretty mild complaint

Look at the pneumatics section of the rule book. Between R78, R85 and R86 I personally don't see how having off-board storage to help charge your on-board tanks is legal. If you are seriously considering this route, please ask on the Q&A so your inspectors have some guidance from the GDC before you show up at the competition!

Also, please note that the rules (R79) specify that all compressed air comes from "one and only one" compressor, with the provided specs for the compressor. Do NOT bring a second robot compressor with the intent of using one to pre-charge and a different one for use during the match. Do NOT bring a normal shop compressor at all. The current those things pull is generally not supported in the pits, and you will most likely be asked to remove it from the venue.

[MrBasse]

Be careful with using off board storage. We did this in 2012 and used a 1 gallon storage tank filled painfully slow from the robots compressor. We then used the remote tank to top off our robot for eliminations or when we had a long wait in the que. We had a few teams complain and the LRI at the Michigan state championships told us it was against the rules and we had to abandon it.

[Shu]

This brings up another question. What is the duty cycle for the Viair compressor? Is it published somewhere? After running for several minutes it gets very hot. We have run ours during prototype testing at >50% duty cycle for up to ten minutes at a time with no issues.

[ebmonon36]

The duty cycle of the Viair compressor is printed on the label of the compressor: 9% at 100psi. AndyMark also has it listed on their website. http://www.andymark.com/product-p/am-2005.htm

[Shu]

Originally Posted by ebmonon36

The duty cycle of the Viair compressor is printed on the label of the compressor: 9% at 100psi. AndyMark also has it listed on their website. http://www.andymark.com/product-p/am-2005.htm

Thanks. I also found the manual online.

http://www.viaircorp.com/images/manu..._95_Manual.pdf

What they are not specific about though is the max run time of the compressor before you have to shut it off to let it cool. They give some examples that show you can run it for over 5 minutes before shutting it off. There is also a thermal overload that is supposed to shut it off when it overheats. I don't believe we have ever got to that point.

[Racer26]

Oh look, its the yearly thread about how silly the pneumatics rules are when it comes to pre-charging your tanks.

My stance is unchanged.

1) You are allowed to pre-fill your tanks, regardless of whether or not your robot has the compressor on board.

2) You are allowed to change your battery AFTER you pre-charge the tanks and BEFORE the start of a MATCH.

3) If you have the compressor off-board, for some inexplicable reason, you have to power and control it via the cRIO, rather than some other system that safely shuts off at 120psi and would otherwise meet pneumatics rules (particularly in terms of safety features).

#3 is the one I don't understand. Since #1 and #2 are true, it literally makes no difference to a match HOW the air got in the tanks. There are dozens of ways I can think of to safely control my compressor that don't involve me needing some way of attaching it to the cRIO (and ostensibly, through a Spike and DSC and PDB)

Relevant 2014 rules here: http://frc-manual.usfirst.org/Search_Results/off-board

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by Racer26

3) If you have the compressor off-board, for some inexplicable reason, you have to power and control it via the cRIO, rather than some other system that safely shuts off at 120psi and would otherwise meet pneumatics rules (particularly in terms of safety features).

Yes, there are other safe ways to charge a pneumatic system (generally speaking). That said, there are reasons we don't allow some of them.

For example, most (maybe all?) pit power supplies are limited - if you bring in a shop compressor and power it on while your neighbors are charging batteries, laptops, and running their bandsaw you'll probably blow the breaker and cut power to multiple pits (individual setups vary, but probably 4+ pits). That's why most inspectors will ask teams to remove any shop compressors from the building - we want to ensure you don't ruin other team's days by cutting power to their pits.

Additionally, when it comes to something as potentially dangerous as pneumatics (an exploding tank can be very dangerous!), FIRST has to take the safe path. We can't assume that every inspector will recognize a safe pneumatics set up, or that every team will be able to create a safe set up from scratch. Thus the strict rules - if FIRST provides explicit instructions on how EVERYONE has to set up their system, then it's much more likely that everyone will be safe, both at the events and in their shops. It's the same reason FIRST has strict rules on how to connect your battery to the robot... there are many ways you could do that, but only 1 method that you're allowed to use.

Safety FIRST!

[apalrd]

IMHO, the requirement to control the compressor via the cRio at all (on or off-board) is meaningless.

You can start the match with 120psi of air in the tanks. You can change the battery after you charge the tanks. You don't even have to have the compressor on your robot. And there isn't even a requirement for a specific pressure switch or compressor. There is no competitive advantage to running the compressor when the robot is not enabled, as long as the valves cannot be actuated (which is true now).

A simple pressure switch and relay would suffice, but instead we need to use a control system programmed by the teams (which IMHO is less safe than a simple relay), which has a significant boot time and requires a laptop just to fill up the robot in the queue line.

I also don't see how preventing a shop type compressor from being used to fill the robot is any less safe than a team using the same compressor for an air riveter in their pit. The compressor is running, the commercially made tank is full of air, and the pits are fine.


In the same way, we currently use a 50a rated battery connector which has proven itself unfit for the hundreds of amps a modern FRC robot is capable of drawing. It will (and has, in several cases) melted before the main breaker trips. The manufacturer even makes larger connectors which are perfect for us, but we can't legally use them.

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

Look at the pneumatics section of the rule book. Between R78, R85 and R86 I personally don't see how having off-board storage to help charge your on-board tanks is legal. If you are seriously considering this route, please ask on the Q&A so your inspectors have some guidance from the GDC before you show up at the competition!

Consider a system where you have 15 Cots storage tanks attached to a portion of your robot cart. These storage tanks have the mandatory emergency release ball valve and pressure gage on them. While in the pits, you run a piece of pneumatic tubing from the pressure release ball valve on your robot to the pressure release ball valve on your storage farm. Open both ball valves, and turn on the compressor.

The compressor fills both the storage farm and the robot.

Close both ball valves, pull the pneumatic tube, and keep the storage farm for the play-offs.

Would that violate a rule?

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by Tom Line

Consider a system where you have 15 Cots storage tanks attached to a portion of your robot cart. These storage tanks have the mandatory emergency release ball valve and pressure gage on them. While in the pits, you run a piece of pneumatic tubing from the pressure release ball valve on your robot to the pressure release ball valve on your storage farm. Open both ball valves, and turn on the compressor.

The compressor fills both the storage farm and the robot.

Close both ball valves, pull the pneumatic tube, and keep the storage farm for the play-offs.

Would that violate a rule?

When you're hooked up this way, is there any easy way to release stored air? It sounds like your manual vent plug isn't accessibly as it's connected to your off-board storage. I also read the rules as implying that off-board storage isn't allowed - the diagrams for off-board compressors explicitly show what is allowed off-board in those situations, and storage is not included off-board. Why would storage be allowed off-board for an on-board compressor, but not be allowed off-board for an off-board compressor?

[apalrd]

Al,

Is there any official way to suggest a rule change for the future? The rule is not ambiguous at all now, so it dosn't seem like the Q and A is the right place, but neither is CD.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Andrew,
While people may not post, that does not mean they are not reading and lurking here on a regular basis. I would bet that the GDC and HQ have read your posts and understand your feelings. Posting the question on the Q&A will give you a definitive answer from GDC.