Drivers Stopping Scoring

[Canon reeves]

So upon further reviewing the game, I began to question would it be possible for one of the drivers to hit the opponent’s ball back onto the field when it is shot in the high goal or low goal. I know this sounds absurd but look at these rules. The only thing I found was talking about human player not touching the opponent’s ball and coaches not being allowed to touch the balls, but there are two drivers? So could one of the drivers hit the ball back out because and according to section 3.1.4,
A BALL is considered SCORED in an ALLIANCE’S GOAL if
A. a ROBOT causes one (1) of their ALLIANCE’S BALLS to cross completely and remain completely through the opening(s) of one (1) of their ALLIANCE’S GOALS without intervening TEAM member contact,
B. the ALLIANCE ROBOT last in contact with the BALL was entirely between the TRUSS and their ALLIANCE’S HIGH GOALS, and
C. the BALL is not in contact with any ROBOT from that ALLIANCE.
So the only rule that might cause a violation is G12, I’m not sure if this means your alliance’s robots or anyone on the alliance.
G12
An ALLIANCE may not POSSESS their opponent’s BALLS. The following criteria define POSSESSION :
A. “carrying” (moving while supporting BALLS in or on the ROBOT or holding the BALL in or on the ROBOT),
B. “herding” (repeated pushing or bumping),
C. “launching” (impelling BALLS to a desired location or direction via a MECHANISM in motion relative to the ROBOT), or
D. “trapping” (overt isolation or holding one or more BALLS against a FIELD element or ROBOT in an attempt to shield them).

Violation: TECHNICAL FOUL per instance. If extended, another TECHNICAL FOUL. If strategic, RED CARD for the ALLIANCE.

Examples of BALL interaction that are not POSSESSION are
A. “bulldozing” (inadvertently coming in contact with BALLS that happen to be in the path of the ROBOT as it moves about the FIELD) and
B. “deflecting” (a single hit to or being hit by a BALL that bounces or rolls off the ROBOT or a BALL slips through the grips of a ROBOT without arresting the BALL'S momentum).
A BALL that becomes unintentionally lodged on a ROBOT will be considered POSSESSED by the ROBOT. It is important to design your ROBOT so that it is impossible to inadvertently or intentionally POSSESS an opponent’s BALL.

G32
Strategies employing HUMAN PLAYER actions to deflect opponents’ BALLS are not allowed.
Violation: TECHNICAL FOUL

G34
COACHES may not touch BALLS. Inadvertent or inconsequential contact will not be penalized.
Violation: FOUL
G39
During the MATCH, TEAMS must remain in contact with the area of the FIELD (ALLIANCE STATION or HUMAN PLAYER AREA) in which they started the MATCH. Exceptions will be granted for inadvertent, momentary, and inconsequential infractions and in cases concerning safety.
Violation: FOUL
G41
TEAMS may not contact any ROBOT or any BALL in contact with a ROBOT at any time during the MATCH.
Violation: TECHNICAL FOU

Please don’t judge, I’m probably missing something huge here, I’m not sure so I would love it if someone directed me towards the rule prohibiting this. Thanks!

[thefro526]

I looked through the manual, and it seems that you're correct, according to the rules as they are written, only the Human Player and/or Coach is specifically prohibited from touching an opponents ball. I couldn't find any specific mention of a 'driver' touching an opponents ball either.

That being said, I'm willing to bet that if you bring this up in Q&A, or try it as an event (specifically a driver reaching up to block a shot), it'll be ruled as being illegal, or not within the 'spirit of the rules' and a team update will follow.

[JamesCH95]

I would think these actions would be "un-civil" and thus illegal per [G13]. I would consider "civil" to mean "courteous and polite" and I would consider using drivers to block or un-score BALLS to be neither courteous nor polite.

G13
All Teams must be civil towards other Teams, competition personnel, and event attendees.

Violation: Potential RED CARD for violations in the ARENA.

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by JamesCH95

I would think these actions would be "un-civil" and thus illegal per [G13]. I would consider "civil" to mean "courteous and polite" and I would consider using drivers to block or un-score BALLS to be neither courteous nor polite.

Not necessarily. Following that train of thought defense would be illegal as blocking/pushing someones robot around would be considered uncivil.

I think the GDC wrote these rules and assumed the HP and Coach would be the only two people with hands available to do something and overlooked the possibility of drivers contacting balls.

I expect a team update to come out.

[JamesCH95]

Originally Posted by BrendanB

Not necessarily. Following that train of thought defense would be illegal as blocking/pushing someones robot around would be considered uncivil.

I think the GDC wrote these rules and assumed the HP and Coach would be the only two people with hands available to do something and overlooked the possibility of drivers contacting balls.

I expect a team update to come out.

I think you're getting a little too lawyer-y on this. One is expected and has decades of precedent in FIRST, as well as being specifically mentioned in the manual:

FRC is a full-contact ROBOT competition and may include rigorous game play. While Game and ROBOT Rules limit severe damage to ROBOTS, Teams should design their ROBOTS to be robust.

and the other is a cheap way of trying to de-score an opponents ball in a manor very much against the principles of FRC and GP.

[Canon reeves]

Alright, I posted a question on Q and A

[joelg236]

Originally Posted by Canon reeves

Alright, I posted a question on Q and A

What question number is it?

[Canon reeves]

Originally Posted by joelg236

What question number is it?

Game - The Game » Game Rules
Q417 Q. Can the drivers un-score the opponents ball by hitting it back out onto the field through the goals?
2014-02-26
Answer is in pending state

[joelg236]

Originally Posted by Canon reeves

Game - The Game » Game Rules
Q417 Q. Can the drivers un-score the opponents ball by hitting it back out onto the field through the goals?
2014-02-26
Answer is in pending state

Might not be the exact wording you want. Maybe "Can drivers interact with opponent's balls during a match?" would answer more questions. "Unscoring" might infer more than you intended (ie. throwing the ball back out).

[Canon reeves]

Originally Posted by joelg236

Might not be the exact wording you want. Maybe "Can drivers interact with opponent's balls during a match?" would answer more questions. "Unscoring" might infer more than you intended (ie. throwing the ball back out).

Ok, I see what you mean, how could I change the question or do I have to make a new one?

[Andy A.]

The Q&A has been answered;

https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/...ough-the-goals

Unsurprisingly, it's a 'No'.

[Taylor]

As the rules are written right now, the OP's strategy is legitimate and legal.
It also used to be legal to leave parts of the robot behind - "capping goals" was a popular strategy before rules specifically disallowed it - as were wedge robots.
Let's not castigate this fellow for suggesting a valid strategy. He put it out here in the open forum, open for discussion, and he did not say he intends for his team to use this strategy.
I say kudos to Canon for thinking outside the 54x25 box.

[Mark McLeod]

I take the use of "Team Member" in A to mean a member of any team.

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by Mark McLeod

I take the use of "Team Member" in A to mean a member of any team.

In that case, this strategy would be even better, because any contact with the ball before it was entirely through the goal would invalidate the score. I think you're looking at the wrong rule.

[Mark McLeod]

I'm pretty sure you're just lawyering the rule.
And that penalty would be interfering with another Alliance's ball.