Propose possible fixes for high goals

[ToddF]

So instead of just complaining about balls bouncing out of the high goals, let's work together as a community to solve this problem for FIRST. Does anyone have any proposals for how to solve this problem? Things to consider in your answer:
- effectiveness
- ease of installation and removal during field setup and teardown
- cost
- time to implement. If it can't be implemented by week 2 competitions, it doesn't help.
- aesthetics. Should blend in with the high tech look of the field and not look like something that was duct taped on at the last minute.

OK, go...

[Bochek]

just cover the openings behind the goals and above the drivers heads. a piece of polycarbonate would do.

[Mr.Paulson]

Our team purchased some corrugated polycarbonate at Menards for use on our robot that only cost around $45.00 for a 4'x8' sheet. This is the same material used to cover greenhouses. It is clear and would look good. From the stands, you probably wouldn't even see it.

As for attaching it...zip ties on top of the pipes would work I think. Quick and cheap. The polycarbonate is only 1/4" thick so that shouldn't affect the ball going through the goal.

Cost? If the pipes are 2' apart, 3 sheets should take care of the whole field (3 half sheets per end). Total cost of around $150 per field. Seems reasonable to me.

[James3245]

Is it possible to incorporate a layer of energy absorbing netting/chains far enough back from goal mouth to avoid bounce-back?

I haven't been able to watch the matches so I don't know the geometry of the problem.

What is the general angle and/or velocity of shots are most likely to bounce back out? Or does it occur on a variety of shot-types?

Of course, the fix needs to avoid a new set of bounce-out problems.

(I'm surprised that this problem has reappeared after last year's tendency of frisbees sliding out in high-scoring matches. Regardless of game, counting goals that are scored should be very high on the "required" specs. for field design.)

[mschwab013]

What about just a ramp that's similar to the low goal ramp? It would make the ball more likely to stay in the goal

[idahorobot]

How about astro turf or shag carpet to absorb the energy?

[eddie12390]

Has first even acknowledged that they see it as an issue? As far as I'm concerned, it's just something that teams should get used to.

[MrBasse]

Originally Posted by eddie12390

Has first even acknowledged that they see it as an issue? As far as I'm concerned, it's just something that teams should get used to.

I agree, they gave us a huge target to put a ball through this year and I think that this is a perfect challenge for teams to have to adapt strategies to.

[cglrcng]

Teams need to shoot closer & up through the goal. Those w/ a flat shot from further away or are going through the upper goal on the flat hang or down arc are the only ones that will have the problem of bounce back through the opening.

Don't fix it. Deal w/ it teams, and alter your shooting, as week one matches are already underway.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by ToddF

So instead of just complaining about balls bouncing out of the high goals, let's work together as a community to solve this problem for FIRST. Does anyone have any proposals for how to solve this problem? Things to consider in your answer:
- effectiveness
- ease of installation and removal during field setup and teardown
- cost
- time to implement. If it can't be implemented by week 2 competitions, it doesn't help.
- aesthetics. Should blend in with the high tech look of the field and not look like something that was duct taped on at the last minute.

OK, go...

Can we add: Leave it as is.

It's not changed since kickoff.

[wesbass23]

I honestly don't think this is something FIRST should fix. Frisbees bounced out of the goals last year. If a ball bounces out of the goal, the team who shot it needs to adjust their shot.

[ttldomination]

Originally Posted by ToddF

So instead of just complaining about balls bouncing out of the high goals, let's work together as a community to solve this problem for FIRST. Does anyone have any proposals for how to solve this problem? Things to consider in your answer:
- effectiveness
- ease of installation and removal during field setup and teardown
- cost
- time to implement. If it can't be implemented by week 2 competitions, it doesn't help.
- aesthetics. Should blend in with the high tech look of the field and not look like something that was duct taped on at the last minute.

OK, go...

Originally Posted by Bochek

just cover the openings behind the goals and above the drivers heads. a piece of polycarbonate would do.

I think Bochek has it. It meets all of ToddF's criterion.

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

Can we add: Leave it as is.

It's not changed since kickoff.

I'm willing to wager that if this happened to your team, you'd be the first one to call foul. It's easy to hold such a potentially hypocritical position when you have yet to play a match.

===

Ultimately, it'll come down to the intent of the rails and how FIRST had intended for the goals to perform.

As per the rules (3.1.4.A), FIRST has no obligation to fix this. They are fine by how the rule is defined and how the field was built.

However, currently, it seems that the rail is there to protect drivers, and not to kick the ball back out. If this is correct, and FIRST wants to keep it that way, they ought to implement a change.

- Sunny G.

3.1.4.A - A BALL is considered SCORED in an ALLIANCE’S GOAL if a ROBOT causes one (1) of their ALLIANCE’S BALLS to cross completely and remain completely through the opening(s) of one (1) of their ALLIANCE’S GOALS without intervening TEAM member contact

[Curt Henderson]

Originally Posted by ToddF

So instead of just complaining about balls bouncing out of the high goals, let's work together as a community to solve this problem for FIRST. Does anyone have any proposals for how to solve this problem? Things to consider in your answer:
- effectiveness
- ease of installation and removal during field setup and teardown
- cost
- time to implement. If it can't be implemented by week 2 competitions, it doesn't help.
- aesthetics. Should blend in with the high tech look of the field and not look like something that was duct taped on at the last minute.

OK, go...

Ok here is my idea for a simple quick fix. Use 1/16" thick polycarbonate cut into 4" wide x 12" long strips. Bend them at 4" on the 12 " length to 45 degrees. Now screw them(on the 4" face) to the back of the goal wall along the top of the opening so the remaining 8" is hanging down towards the goal opening. These will be very flexible when the ball hits them as it is scored yet be very durable when the ball tries to bend them backwards. These fingers could be added every 12" along the goal opening to minimize the field modification time.

[Anupam Goli]

To all people saying teams should deal with it:

This isn't a case of a ball hitting the top and bouncing in the goal opening. This is the ball literally going in through the whole, bouncing on the piece protecting the drive team, and bouncing back out of the hole. I don't see how a team should just design around it, it's a field issue. The backing on the ultimate ascent goals were something to take into account, and it was obvious. The balls bouncing out of these goals is something that wasn't so obvious until week 1 events. It may have happened once or twice in week 0, but there was one match at palmetto where the ball went in and then bounced out 3 times in one match.


I'm inclined to believe just some polycarb that is tilted at a slight angle would fix this issue entirely, and shouldn't be expensive.

[MrBasse]

Originally Posted by Anupam Goli

To all people saying teams should deal with it:

This isn't a case of a ball hitting the top and bouncing in the goal opening. This is the ball literally going in through the whole, bouncing on the piece protecting the drive team, and bouncing back out of the hole. I don't see how a team should just design around it, it's a field issue. The backing on the ultimate ascent goals were something to take into account, and it was obvious. The balls bouncing out of these goals is something that wasn't so obvious until week 1 events. It may have happened once or twice in week 0, but there was one match at palmetto where the ball went in and then bounced out 3 times in one match.


I'm inclined to believe just some polycarb that is tilted at a slight angle would fix this issue entirely, and shouldn't be expensive.

It's definitely a field issue, however, it is one that a lot of teams didn't notice until now. It sounds like a lot of teams missed a crucial part of the design process. Who's fault is that?

Originally Posted by kstl99

Snip
Also the field drawings did not reflect the bar in the back. To me this is a different challenge than what was presented and should be fixed.
Snip

Been there since day one on the Official Field Drawings...

This isn't really a big deal. In every sporting event there are challenges. They don't stop a baseball game because it is windy, batters just try to keep the ball low to avoid the wind. Same in football, soccer, or any sport played outside...

Adjust your shot, modify your strategy, play the game you were given.