Pedestal Delays

[DjScribbles]

At the Southfield District Event (MI) there were a few cases where the delay between an alliance clearing the field of balls and the pedestal being lit to allow the inbounder to grab the next ball.

I'm wondering if this was observed at other events, and how it was handled.

In one of our matches we had a 40 sec delay, and, because the delay wasn't explicitly observed during the match, it took a number of visits with the referees before we were granted a replay of the match.

Here is the video of the match: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv-QUKZLWUQ

At 1:00 (video time) you see the last red auto-ball cleared from the field. At 1:45, you see the human player return with our first cycle ball. For about 40 seconds, the pedestal was not lit. You cannot see the pedestal in the video, however the problem is quite obvious.

While I'm generally against 'video reviews' of penalties and such during a match, I'm wondering if an exception should be allowed for cases such as this; where clear video evidence of a field/match fault exists that can be correlated with events observed on the field (supposedly, the ref marked the field as cleared shortly after the last ball was scored, but some delay caused the pedestal to not light).

I saw that in some cases even small delays often had a big impact on match flow, (where a robot sits and waits for a new ball as the old ball is cleared, but gives up after some delay to go defend, then ends up being late for the inbounder). I would expect these smaller delays will diminish over time as the refs get more experienced with the game; but there are some interesting situations introduced by the 'human' factor in the game.

[kwotremb]

Since this was experienced so much for all teams, the refs should have given a verbal go ahead to teams to take the ball. Rather than have to replay the matches. Would have helped the event stay on time. I hope they have this fixed for the next week of events.

[Hoover]

Hopefully an operator can describe how this works. It has to be manually turned on, I don't see how it can be automated.

We had an incident at MAR Mount Olive. Another team human player already had a ball ready to load a robot. When I turned around our human player had taken a ball off the pedestal. As coach I chased after him before he threw it onto the field and returned it to the pedestal. Here is where it becomes a blur. When I returned it to the pedestal the light was on.

At the end of the game the head ref approached me and I described the above. We were accessed a 50 point penalty but we had lost and didn't change the outcome of the match. Without proof I couldn't contest it.

Our human player is special education, so I started to doubt having him as the human player. I felt bad about this because in a later match, I watched him, he would NOT touch the ball until the pedestal lit. He is a great human player.

In a later match (not us) there was a field fault because that same pedestal light did not turn off. My theory is that in our match, once the first ball was taken, another ball was placed on it while it was still lit, but I can not prove it.

Originally Posted by Hoover

Hopefully an operator can describe how this works. It has to be manually turned on, I don't see how it can be automated...

This is, in fact, automated within the FMS (to an extent). The referee panels have a button which says end cycle. This is pressed when a ball is scored, and triggers the FMS to calculate score based on possessions and assists, and light up the pedestal among other things. There is something, somewhere in systems which is causing delays. I ref week 3, but I am told that there is a noticeable delay between the ref panels being touched and them accepting the input.

So basically, this appears to be a software issue, and hopefully will be fixed in time for week 2.

[Danny Diaz]

Originally Posted by tanmaker

This is, in fact, automated within the FMS (to an extent). The referee panels have a button which says end cycle. This is pressed when a ball is scored, and triggers the FMS to calculate score based on possessions and assists, and light up the pedestal among other things. There is something, somewhere in systems which is causing delays. I ref week 3, but I am told that there is a noticeable delay between the ref panels being touched and them accepting the input.

Yup, and then the pedestal remains lit until the referees record "something" happening with the ball (assist, truss, catch, goal ... SOMETHING). The field staff MAY inadvertently place the new ball on the pedestal while it's still lit, and if a team grabs that ball and enters it into the field that's a Field Fault. The field staff and referees were warned of this (since there's no way to detect the ball being removed from the pedestal) and now you are too.

-Danny

[KCmoon]

One of our matches the pedestal did not light up after autonomous so our coach was waving and shouting that it was not being lit. It was great that he made a commotion to get attention to it and the match was stopped and we restarted. But I agree, there is a delay with the pedestals and it has to be fixed. Albeit, it is a Week 1 so there are bound to be problems and FIRST will probably work out more of the kinks for Week 2.

[kwotremb]

Originally Posted by Hoover

Hopefully an operator can describe how this works. It has to be manually turned on, I don't see how it can be automated.

We had an incident at MAR Mount Olive. Another team human player already had a ball ready to load a robot. When I turned around our human player had taken a ball off the pedestal. As coach I chased after him before he threw it onto the field and returned it to the pedestal. Here is where it becomes a blur. When I returned it to the pedestal the light was on.

At the end of the game the head ref approached me and I described the above. We were accessed a 50 point penalty but we had lost and didn't change the outcome of the match. Without proof I couldn't contest it.

Our human player is special education, so I started to doubt having him as the human player. I felt bad about this because in a later match, I watched him, he would NOT touch the ball until the pedestal lit. He is a great human player.

In a later match (not us) there was a field fault because that same pedestal light did not turn off. My theory is that in our match, once the first ball was taken, another ball was placed on it while it was still lit, but I can not prove it.

That happened to us in a match as well. Luckily we where not penalized for it. It was near the end of one of our early matches noticed that suddenly we had two balls on the field. After the match talked with the drive team and the human player said that a ball was on the pedestal and it was lit so he put it onto the field. Noticed later in the event that the volunteers would not put the ball onto the pedestal until after the light went out. I think there was a little talk about it after that match.

[Chris Hibner]

Originally Posted by kwotremb

That happened to us in a match as well. Luckily we where not penalized for it. It was near the end of one of our early matches noticed that suddenly we had two balls on the field. After the match talked with the drive team and the human player said that a ball was on the pedestal and it was lit so he put it onto the field. Noticed later in the event that the volunteers would not put the ball onto the pedestal until after the light went out. I think there was a little talk about it after that match.

I'm not sure if it's the same match, but I saw this at Southfield when the bars rejected a goal. The ball bounced behind the goal for what seemed like a long time, and then the ball bounced back on the field. By that point, the refs had already awarded the goal and the pedestal lit up so a new ball was entered on the field. It was strange seeing two balls on the field.

[Cam877]

Originally Posted by Hoover

Hopefully an operator can describe how this works. It has to be manually turned on, I don't see how it can be automated.

We had an incident at MAR Mount Olive. Another team human player already had a ball ready to load a robot. When I turned around our human player had taken a ball off the pedestal. As coach I chased after him before he threw it onto the field and returned it to the pedestal. Here is where it becomes a blur. When I returned it to the pedestal the light was on.

At the end of the game the head ref approached me and I described the above. We were accessed a 50 point penalty but we had lost and didn't change the outcome of the match. Without proof I couldn't contest it.

Our human player is special education, so I started to doubt having him as the human player. I felt bad about this because in a later match, I watched him, he would NOT touch the ball until the pedestal lit. He is a great human player.

In a later match (not us) there was a field fault because that same pedestal light did not turn off. My theory is that in our match, once the first ball was taken, another ball was placed on it while it was still lit, but I can not prove it.

Yes, and this was not the only problem we had at mount olive. Many replays had to be done because of pedestal delays, including a quarterfinal match that ended up overturning the result of the series. This really needs to be amended. Great job at the competition this weekend by the way 4381!

[Hoover]

Originally Posted by Cam877

Yes, and this was not the only problem we had at mount olive. Many replays had to be done because of pedestal delays, including a quarterfinal match that ended up overturning the result of the series. This really needs to be amended. Great job at the competition this weekend by the way 4381!

Thanks, Cam877. And congratulations to team 11. Even though you didn't win your 3 match semi-final it could have easily gone your way.

Now I feel like a chump for not arguing the pedestal foul. First of all, the confusion altered the outcome of the game in some way. This was really a rematch situation and I should have protested it, assuming there is a way to do that. I did tell them that the light was on so that should have been enough.

The game is better than I first thought but we need smooth play and not these glitches.

[Libby K]

Originally Posted by Hoover

Thanks, Cam877. And congratulations to team 11. Even though you didn't win your 3 match semi-final it could have easily gone your way.

Now I feel like a chump for not arguing the pedestal foul. First of all, the confusion altered the outcome of the game in some way. This was really a rematch situation and I should have protested it, assuming there is a way to do that. I did tell them that the light was on so that should have been enough.

The game is better than I first thought but we need smooth play and not these glitches.

Hoover,

For future reference: Have a pre-college student on the drive team stand in the referee question box. That is the way to ask questions/clarifications/point out issues. For something like the pedestal issue, it's important to let the nearest referee/FTA know DURING the match.

The precedent at Mt. O was that the pedestal not lighting up correctly was an arena fault, and several matches in qualifications were replayed because of this. That's what Alliance 2 contested in the QFs, and one of the affected matches in the series was replayed. (QF 3-2 and 3-3 were both affected by pedestal issues, but since we didn't make it known in 2 -during- the match, it was not replayed. We made the field crew aware of it in 3, and QF 3-3 was replayed for that arena fault, overturning the series.)

[Hoover]

Originally Posted by Libby K

Hoover,

For future reference: Have a pre-college student on the drive team stand in the referee question box. That is the way to ask questions/clarifications/point out issues. For something like the pedestal issue, it's important to let the nearest referee/FTA know DURING the match.

Thanks Libby. This was in the earlier matches and we were still getting used to the game. I had one eye on the pedestal every match after that. I think we'd have been better off letting Jason throw the second ball on the field and then they'd have to had to investigate during the game.

As for having a student go to the question box... our alliances always pulled the control boards and left the field immediately. We had 2 instances of us winning in qualification and then an upset re-score occurring minutes after. We were half way back to the pits. I don't know what to do. I'm half way leaning to have the whole darned alliance stay put, arms crossed until the final scoring happens and then go as a unit (pre-college only) to the question box to at least get an explanation. That seems rather extreme.

I will say I was really really hoping for real time scoring this year and I am not getting it.

Originally Posted by Hoover

As for having a student go to the question box... our alliances always pulled the control boards and left the field immediately. We had 2 instances of us winning in qualification and then an upset re-score occurring minutes after. We were half way back to the pits. I don't know what to do. I'm half way leaning to have the whole darned alliance stay put, arms crossed until the final scoring happens and then go as a unit (pre-college only) to the question box to at least get an explanation. That seems rather extreme.

Actually, this is almost exactly what you need to do. If a non pre-college student comes to my question box, I immediately send them away to get a student that I can talk to. What can be done is have a student representative of each team wait behind to find the score and contest anything if they deem it necessary. To my knowledge, there is no rule preventing mentors and adults from helping take the robot off the field or grab the drivers stations.

[Andy A.]

Originally Posted by tanmaker

To my knowledge, there is no rule preventing mentors and adults from helping take the robot off the field or grab the drivers stations.

The 'catch', if you can call it one, is that it's just about impossible to get near the field without a driver badge. Strictly speaking only the drive team (including the human player and in some cases the safety captain) are allowed on the field to move the robot. Some volunteers might let it slide, others won't.

Realistically, you send one of your drivers/human player to the question box. That's probably fine 99% of the time, since they presumably know the rules and what happened during the match, but it does mean you're down a drive team member for moving the robot. In the past I've had the driver in charge of the controls hang back if I thought there might be a problem, while I the other driver and human player handle the robot.

Originally Posted by Andy A.

The 'catch', if you can call it one, is that it's just about impossible to get near the field without a driver badge. Strictly speaking only the drive team (including the human player and in some cases the safety captain) are allowed on the field to move the robot. Some volunteers might let it slide, others won't.

I'm curious as to what rule you're referencing. The only rule regarding a coach is that they may not touch balls or controls during a match. Other than that, there are no rules preventing them from entering the field.