Two balls on the field in Howell QF-1-2

[kenfox]

Full match video is at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWNqmNu-SZI

Twice in this match there were 2 red balls on the field. The first time was after an autonomous dead ball came alive in teleop (0:50 mark). The second time a red ball was inbounded off the pedestal at the same time as another was put back in play from out of bounds (1:35 mark).

How should these situations be called?

This was our first competition this season (we were blue 3322 in this match) and the game was a lot harder to referee than we expected. Mad props to the refs for the job they do.

[Gregor]

At 1:26 the ball was shot over the truss by 67. It (looked like it) didn't contact 469 before it went into the red low goal, thus it didn't meet the definition of scored. Field reset brought the ball to the nearest human player, and the referee counted it as scored. Then chaos began.

[GBK]

There was more than one ball on in play at Gull Lake last weekend during the semi finals. (after the auton balls were cleared) Both times bot balls scored and counted. The problem seems to be that FIRST is relying on the Ref's to do the scoring rather than having them focus on the very difficult task of calling fouls. The Ref's have it hard enough without having to be score keepers as well. There have also been many times where teams were not given credit in the score for the assists during cycles. The field showed the assists on the score board, and the lights were lit on the field. However after the ball was scored, the score did not reflect the points. The best thing you can do is pay close attention to things like this and send a student to the question box as soon as the match is over.

[Adam Freeman]

Yeah....this was pretty confusing for everyone involved.

We were experiencing some type of short or something that was locking up the robot until after a cRIO reboot, so we had to 'dead ball' to allow our alliance to continue while we waited for the robot to come back alive. Once it did we just tried to get rid of the extra ball as soon as possible, but once the ball came loose it was hard to tell which was which.

The other time, I'm pretty sure thre pedestal was not supposed to light up. But once the ball is on the field the only way to clear the confusion is to score it quickly.

We just scored them and let the refs figure it out. I feel bad for the refs, its pretty hard to keep track of everything going on in this game.

[jlmcmchl]

Originally Posted by kenfox

The first time was after an autonomous dead ball came alive in teleop (0:50 mark).

In the first instance, HOT had a dead ball, as their robot's unresponsiveness prevented any progression for the alliance. That ball needed to be taken off the field once HOT started moving, and should not have been scored, as it was a dead ball.

Originally Posted by kenfox

The second time a red ball was inbounded off the pedestal at the same time as another was put back in play from out of bounds (1:35 mark).

In the second instance, you cannot score truss points and non-catch points in the same throw, which is why the ball was returned to a human player. The pedestal should not have been re-lit as no score actually took place. This is a very confusing instance which I have only seen once before, but this was handled correctly at Southfield, if applied at the end of the match.

The video doesn't show the score progression so I don't know if either ball was counted.

[Basel A]

Originally Posted by jlmcmchl

In the first instance, HOT had a dead ball, as their robot's unresponsiveness prevented any progression for the alliance. That ball needed to be taken off the field once HOT started moving, and should not have been scored, as it was a dead ball.

EDIT: Looks like the dead ball was handled by the book. When I consulted my manual on this, I didn't realise it was from before an update that clarifies this situation.


The double inbound was an obvious mistake, but seemed to be handled about as well as it could have been once both balls were in play. All the lights were turned off until one ball was removed, and based on the score, it appears this first ball wasn't counted as scored. It ended up hurting the red alliance because they had to waste their time removing a ball.

I'm not too torn up about this whole situation, simply because it wasn't the reason we lost. Referee errors or not, the other alliance deserved to win the match and the series.

[JosephC]

I was here and here's what happened with the 2 balls on the Field at the same time after HOT got rid of their Dead Ball.

67 shot the ball over the truss, and it looks like the ball wasn't scored from where I was standing so I returned it to the nearly HP ASAP. HOWEVER, the ball barely contacted 469 and the Ref counted it as scored*. So it was my mistake, not the Refs, that caused the two balls on the field at the same time. Since it didn't affect the outcome of the match, The Head Ref decided not to replay the match.

Just clearing things up, once again it was my fault, not the Refs.

*Not commenting on anything about missing score because I don't really know anything about that.

[Mike Schreiber]

Scoring Progression for Red alliance

10+5+5 for 469's hot goal in Auton
10+5 for HOT's non-HOT goal in Auton
10 for 67 and 469 moving forward
Total 45 Auton points

Cycle 1
10 for 469 Truss
10 for 469 score
67 disposes of dead ball for 0 points
Total Score 65

Cycle 2
10 for 67 Truss
Score to this point 75

Here is where the confusion starts:

If 469 contacted the ball and the ref counted it as a possession it should count for 1+10+20
Score should be 106

If 469 contacted the ball and the ref did not count it as possession but because they contacted it according to Section 3.1.4 the ball is scored it should count for 11
Score should be 86
This is the most likely case because there are 2 assist lights on at that point so this is what I'll use for my cycle 3 calculations.

If the ball does not count as scored and is supposed to be returned to the field it is later scored by 469 in the high goal and should count for 10+10+20
Score should be 115 (this is clearly not the case since the final score was 111)

Cycle 3
This ball may be either a 2 assist since 3548 inbounded the ball or a 1 assist because when this ball went through the goal there was only 1 assist on the ball (I have no explanation for why).
Score should be either 96 or 106.


Cycle 4
10 for 67 Truss
Score should be either 106 or 116.

Ironically the scoring mistake in this match is in the very clear portion of the match... auton. Since that is the only way we could possibly be off by 5 points from the final actual score because 5 low goal balls were not scored. Any thoughts on that? Did I mess up somewhere?

I understand the refs have an impossible job and the field reset does as well. No one blames you. This game is very frustrating for everyone.

[EricH]

I'd like to make a couple of comments. Bear in mind that I have only watched the video linked earlier in this thread, and what I'm about to say is probably going to show that any advocates for instant replay are going to REALLY need to reconsider single-camera methods.

Basel, the high goal that 469 scored should have been counted as scored. BUT, unless and until the dead ball was cleared (by sending it through a goal or to a human player), no points should ever be awarded, and no cycle should be ended. Once the dead ball is cleared, the cycle is ended. This certainly appears to be what happened in this match. In short: Dead ball loose, no cycle end. Dead ball disappear, end cycle when live ball scored if not previously scored.

Regarding the truss-corner goal shot: I can't tell for sure whether or not 469 contacted the ball. From that camera vantage point, it looks like they didn't--nothing deflects on them, nothing changes in the ball's trajectory. In which case, Joseph actually got it right. Bear in mind that although it happens right in front of a ref, the ref in question is actually scoring BLUE possessions and truss shots; the ref scoring RED is at the far side of the field*. (If instant replay had been available from the webcast camera, it would have been inconclusive, call stands. Folks looking at single-angle instant replay, the robot itself blocked any chance of a good replay call on that.) But, the camera vantage point is not the ref's vantage point. So it's entirely possible that the refs did in fact get it right.

Given point of view that the ref made a mistake... replay, or rescore. Mike's third case applies. IMO, that's the right call. (Again, I wasn't there, I've only seen the video.) But, if 469 did in fact make contact (again, I don't see anything to confirm or deny that in the video), then Mike's second case applies.

BTW, that's not going to be an easy call to make by any ref. I could tell the refs were trying to figure out what went wrong (they were on their headsets later in the match). I'm not going to second-guess that call; I don't think I could have made it either way (again, just based on the video) and NOT have someone in the challenge box.


*GDC, if you're reading this: Field Reset should NOT have a better view of whether something is scored or not than the scorekeeper/ref who is supposed to be tracking the score of that particular thing!