Missed Inbounder Assists

[Adam Freeman]

**Disclaimer** Not trying to call anyone out...just trying to understand.

While reviewing our match footage from the Waterford District F3 match, I noticed that one of our balls was only credited for (1) assist, even though it was passed out of 4994 in the red zone to 51, who had a possesion all three zones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...pDfBkQ#t=12 2

We specifically worked with 4994 to modify their robot to be able to pass the ball quickly out of their machine via their roller intake. Ball ball went in and out of their robot very quickly, but it was actively ejected from the robot by the intake spinning.

In the end, it's a moot point since we lost 130-95, so regardless of the additional assist it would not have changed the outcome of the match. But, I know that the fact that the lights were only showing (1) assist effected our strategy of where 51 scored that ball (low goal v. high goal). At the time the score was very close, and the difference could have been scoring in the low goal and starting another cycle v. trying to continue to score in the high goal.

It might be hard to tell in the video, since there are robots blocking the inbound but I can assure you the ball passed through 4994's robot. Is there a specific amount of time refs are looking for before a ball is ejected? Do we need to review our strategy with the appropriate refs so they know what to look for when we are trying to get a third assist with this type of machine?

I was told this was not the only time we were not credited for this assist in the elims. Although, this is the only video example I could find. Possible it was just an honest mistake by the refs.

I'd like to utilize this strategy in future competitions, and I want to make sure we are doing it correctly, to maximize our score.

[Steven Donow]

I would personally would consider this an assist, but would also like to hear other's opinion on it...at Northeastern when looking at possible 2nd picks before alliance selections we looked into doing similar things to a few teams in order to do a similar assist.

[MrForbes]

Wait till the green dot lights up before they get rid of the ball? Shouldn't be necessary, but it might be a good way to ensure the referee noticed the possession.

Being able do do things very quickly, means the things might not be seen. Apparently the referees have a lot of things to watch.

[Jay O'Donnell]

POSSESS: (for a ROBOT) to carry (move while supporting BALLS in or on the ROBOT), herd (repeated pushing or bumping), launch (impel BALLS to a desired location or direction via a MECHANISM in motion relative to the ROBOT), or trap (overt isolation or holding one or more BALLS against a FIELD element or ROBOT in an attempt to shield them) a BALL.

According to this definition of possess from the manual, it should've been counted as an assist, since they "launched" the ball, based on the definition of launch.

[Chris Hibner]

The sad thing is if our robot's shooter didn't decide to start shooting high blooper balls instead of our normal low trajectory, we probably would've pulled out that match. We really need to figure out what changed in the afternoon.

[mathking]

Having just refereed, my advice would be to go to the head referee before the match to point out that the particular robot being used does indeed eject the ball, so that the referees know to look at it.

For those who don't know, in teleop the near side (in front of the scoring table) referees can enter possessions, trusses, catches and scores. They are also the referees who can complete a cycle. Which is a different button from the score button. The far side referees can do possessions, trusses and catches. All four referees with pads can enter fouls. But to enter fouls you have to toggle between screens. As a result, at Queen City we tried to have the far side referees enter the fouls. The near side referees track the alliance shooting at the goal on their side while the far side referees track the alliance inbounding on their side. So if a far side referee is entering a foul they may be looking at their pad when the ball is put into play, and the far side referee can't always tell what happened. If they are expecting a quick inbound play they will be more likely to get it scored.

[waialua359]

Adam,
I think you understand it perfectly well and the strategy for 2 possession is the best there is on how to do it quickly.
As MathKing pointed out, I would suggest making sure the scorekeepers/refs understand what you are doing, especially during eliminations when the same strategy is being used by the same teams.

Over 3 events, we have seen so many missed assists in our matches, especially during qualifications. In our last 2 events, we earned 610 and 670 assist points with the field of teams available at our respective events, as it was a focal point for our team that we carefully watched for each and every match.

Hopefully at Championships, the reffing is more consistent. I'm sure as refs do more and more events, the chances of missed assists will occur much much less.

[Adam Freeman]

Originally Posted by waialua359

Over 3 events, we have seen so many missed assists in our matches, especially during qualifications. In our last 2 events, we earned 610 and 670 assist points with the field of teams available at our respective events, as it was a focal point for our team that we carefully watched for each and every match.

Glen,

You are SO correct, for both Qualifying and Eliminations! I tried to stress an assist first strategy for Quals this weekend, forgoing most truss/catch points just to try and get as many 2 or 3 assist cycles as possible.

We missed out on the #1 seed at Waterford by 20 assist points () . In hindsight every single little missed assist, blown strategy call, mis-aligned shot, etc... factors into my post-event analysis.

My guess is that each Division qualification ranking at Champs wil come down to the assist tie breaker as well. Typically the quality of reffing in MI is much higher than the quality at Champs, since most refs around here are working an event each week. They are usually very qualified by this time in the season.

We will definately be discussing our match strategy and alliance robot characteristics pre-match with the refs at Champs.

[JB987]

Glenn and Adam,
We also thought pre match discussion with refs would help them understand our assist strategy and help reduce the number of missed assists calls...result was several more matches with missed third assists awarded and over a 100 pts not counted all together. Hopefully we can do a better job "educating" our refs next week

[Citrus Dad]

This is part of a bigger problem that refs are not able to count all of the scoring. We've seen this both at our regionals and on video we've watched--entire cycles are not being scored, even including the goal. We saw that in reviewing one of 254's matches at Waterloo, where we could replay the video to confirm it. FIRST will have to do something to address this at World's when the play will speed up dramatically.

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by JB987

Glenn and Adam,
We also thought pre match discussion with refs would help them understand our assist strategy and help reduce the number of missed assists calls...result was several more matches with missed third assists awarded and over a 100 pts not counted all together. Hopefully we can do a better job "educating" our refs next week

As a spectator for matches in between our matches, I found myself way more skilled in seeing missed call, if any. I guess the more matches you see, the better you get.
Its too bad this game puts a lot of work on the refs to see, determine, and input score while watching for game play.
With so many teams at CMPS and only 10 matches, ties will occur in the top 8, and assists essentially become win points.

[magnets]

Originally Posted by waialua359

As a spectator for matches in between our matches, I found myself way more skilled in seeing missed call, if any. I guess the more matches you see, the better you get.
Its too bad this game puts a lot of work on the refs to see, determine, and input score while watching for game play.
With so many teams at CMPS and only 10 matches, ties will occur in the top 8, and assists essentially become win points.

I agree that this will be an issue. It's really tough for refs to see everything, and if a team notices that assists aren't being counted properly, what are the refs supposed to do? They aren't just going to trust what a random team member saw, and even if there is amazingly clear video evidence, they can't look at it. It's also not right to just say no to a team who says a match score is wrong. A replay might be a possible, but it ruins any surprise match strategy, and often doesn't give teams enough time to reset their robot.

Just out of curiosity, what's the policy on changing scores? Can a score be undone during a match? After a match? In eliminations/qualifications? Autonomous in teleop?

[mathking]

Originally Posted by magnets

I agree that this will be an issue. It's really tough for refs to see everything, and if a team notices that assists aren't being counted properly, what are the refs supposed to do? They aren't just going to trust what a random team member saw, and even if there is amazingly clear video evidence, they can't look at it. It's also not right to just say no to a team who says a match score is wrong. A replay might be a possible, but it ruins any surprise match strategy, and often doesn't give teams enough time to reset their robot.

Just out of curiosity, what's the policy on changing scores? Can a score be undone during a match? After a match? In eliminations/qualifications? Autonomous in teleop?

Referees can and do adjust scores after matches. Once the cycle has ended the change has to wait until the end of the game. There were a number of matches at Queen City in which we adjusted scores after matches. Sometimes we would hit the possession, score and cycle buttons in succession and realize the possession didn't take. We would note the cycle number and add the possession after the match was done. A few times we weren't sure if a team got a possession (mostly it was when they shot or passes just as they crossed from one zone to the next) so we entered the cycle and asked over the radio if there was a possession, fixing any discrepancy after the match.

The biggest problem is that the pads have a bit of lag, and you have to toggle between the foul and scoring/possession screens. Most of the time the pads worked well, but they wouldn't always register a button press. The time spent looking down to insure the button was pressed meant time not looking at the field. If we spend even more extra time trying to figure out if there was another possession or not then the new cycle wouldn't start promptly. I would guess about 10-12 times we went back and added possessions that added assists.

In most of those cases (maybe all of them) at least one of the teams came up to ask about it, and usually I would just turn and say something like "The third assist in your second cycle? Yeah we got it. We are adjusting the score." and they wouldn't even wait in the question box. I don't have an accurate accounting of how many assists we missed (I am sure we missed some) but there were probably a half dozen more times when teams came up and we said "Team xxxx did not get all the way into the white zone before they made their truss shot, so you didn't get three assists." Also, a couple of times when we asked each other "Did that shot go over the truss?" (there were a lot of high balls shot to human players that were above the posts and it was not always clear) the human player of the opposing alliance said "Yes it did."

As has been said in a few previous threads, it would probably have been better if the fifth referee had been included from the start and given a pad to enter fouls. I was the truss referee from Friday afternoon on, and it would have simplified things. But I highly recommend asking about missed possessions right after the match if you think you were shorted. There is a good chance that the referees will remember then and be able to correct it.

[mizscience]

Reffing at the DC regional, there was a bot like this and us refs were reminded by our head ref (who had been tipped about this by someone else - not sure if it was the team, the inspectors, someone else) before any match with them to look out for them launching the ball and to count it as a possession. It greatly helped us in scoring matches with that bot.

Like others have stated, the refs are human and trying their best to be as quick and accurate as possible, but they can miss things in the chaos. Just point out the launching capability of your bot to the head ref on practice day and it should help the refs a great deal when scoring your matches!

[Jared Russell]

At this point, I have basically accepted that 5-10% of assists will be missed. Consider it the cost of doing business