G-29?

[JB987]

I noticed several g-29 calls in the MSC event today. I have looked in the game manual, glossary, Q and A and can't seem to find an actual definition of pinning anywhere this year. Can anyone out there enlighten me? Surely they weren't calling midfield pinning?

[Gregor]

Hmm, you actually raise a good point, there is nothing that defines pinning this year.

In referee training we were trained to call pins as against a field element, or two robots pinning one robot.

So yes, pins on the middle of the field can be called, but now that you point it out, I can't see it anywhere in the manual.

[RonnieS]

At msc we got that called against us once. It was good that it didn't change the outcome of the match but still a very questionable call. It started as an open field pin. We pushed them from white zone all the way to the colored zone wall then backed up to peal off on another team for D. That team then pushed us into the previous team we were defending before the "grace period" was up and they couldn't get away. Needless to say I was fairly pissed. I did not believe it was the right call at all. But we live to play more matches. Honestly thia was the least of my worries compared to some of the other penalties called but that is for a later time and another thread.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by Ronnie314

At msc we got that called against us once. It was good that it didn't change the outcome of the match but still a very questionable call. It started as an open field pin. We pushed them from white zone all the way to the colored zone wall then backed up to peal off on another team for D. That team then pushed us into the previous team we were defending before the "grace period" was up and they couldn't get away. Needless to say I was fairly pissed. I did not believe it was the right call at all. But we live to play more matches. Honestly thia was the least of my worries compared to some of the other penalties called but that is for a later time and another thread.

Was there another robot on your alliance also participating in the "pin," or were you just "t-boning."

[RonnieS]

Originally Posted by Gregor

Was there another robot on your alliance also participating in the "pin," or were you just "t-boning."

Nope. Just us...all of the other 4 robots were at the other end of the field. I was just confused at the call.

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by Ronnie314

Nope. Just us...all of the other 4 robots were at the other end of the field. I was just confused at the call.

Do you have a video, or at least remember what match it was?

[RonnieS]

Originally Posted by bduddy

Do you have a video, or at least remember what match it was?

Not right now, when I get some extra time I will try and find it.

[Grim Tuesday]

An ALLIANCE may not pin an opponent ROBOT for more than five (5) seconds. A ROBOT will be considered pinned until the ROBOTS have separated by at least six (6) ft. The pinning ROBOT(S) must then wait for at least three (3) seconds before attempting to pin the same ROBOT again. Pinning is transitive through other objects.

If we follow standard GDC logic, 'pin' in G29 is not capitalized so it is not a term defined in the glossary. Usually when someone asks a Q&A question about that, the GDC will refer them to a plan English dictionary definition; they tend to use dictionary.com -- the definition given there is

To hold fast in a spot or position (sometimes followed by down): The debris pinned him down.

By that, T-Bone pinning is considered a pin. I think this is a good time for a Q&A, and I'm surprised it hasn't been asked earlier.

[JB987]

By all means, will someone please post relevant question to Q and A, though given response history from GDC this year it's certainly possible we will get no answer from them. Regardless I would recommend that each division head ref be asked at drivers meeting how/if they will call extended midfield/t-bones a pin or not.

[RonnieS]

Originally Posted by JB987

By all means, will someone please post relevant question to Q and A, though given response history from GDC this year it's certainly possible we will get no answer from them. Regardless I would recommend that each division head ref be asked at drivers meeting how/if they will call extended midfield/t-bones a pin or not.

That is what we are doing, asking head ref at our division to make absolute certain

[RufflesRidge]

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday

I think this is a good time for a Q&A, and I'm surprised it hasn't been asked earlier.

You mean like this?
https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/56/viewquestion

Q. G29 What is the definition of pin? Is a robot pinned when it is being pushed i.e. moving but not where it wants to go? Is a robot pinned only when it is immobilized i.e. not moving?
2014-01-10 by FRC0885
A. In the absence of a formal FRC definition, a general definition of term is implied. Pin means to hold fast in a spot or position. If a ROBOT can move, even if not in its desired direction, it is not considered pinned.

[Grim Tuesday]

I stand corrected!

[rich2202]

Originally Posted by Ronnie314

That team then pushed us into the previous team we were defending before the "grace period" was up and they couldn't get away.

One could argue that G14 (Strategies aimed solely at forcing the opposing ALLIANCE to violate a rule are not in the spirit of FRC and are not allowed. Rule violations forced in this manner will not result in assessment of a penalty on the target ALLIANCE.) would apply.

I think there are situations that are "unintentional", so the G14 exception would keep you from being penalized, but not intentional enough for the opposing team to get a G14 violation. In other words, both the G14 and G29 violations are waived.

Note: In the G29 defintion: " Pinning is transitive through other objects." Thus, it could be argued that the Team pinned itself through you, and you were the transitive object, and not the pinning object.