Tote Bot vs. Container Bot?

[Shaffer]

My team is debating whether it would be more useful to build a robot that can stack totes or place containers on top of totes.

It seems like a good "container bot" might be picked by an alliance captain in the finals because of its specialty.

However, the "container bot" doesn't seem like it will be very useful on its own (especially if it's randomly paired with no tote-stacking robots), and if it can't stack the container accurately well... mmm... not so good.

I figure there will probably be lots of good "tote bots" (maybe for good reason), so "container bots" might find a niche.

Thoughts?

[Jeffy]

I think most bots that are tote-bots can become tote + container bots with a few small modifications.

[tStano]

Container bots can get points on their own, assuming they're decent at their job.

They can push a tote into a scoring zone without a "tote manipulator"(possibly a stack of 2 straight from the human player). They can also have a driving alliance partner do this. They can then get litter from a human player, which is possible, as shown here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH0Gv2w8l0E

Then they can stack that container on top of the crate(or stack of 2 crates). This 'stack' is worth 12 points, 18 points if its 2 totes high. You could conceivably do this 7 times in a qualification match(if you get all containers from middle(which I imagine you'd start doing in auto), which is an appreciable number of points, 84 or 126. Depending on the efficiency of a tote bot(and the efficiency of a container bot), this could be more points than a tote bot in a match. Their 'stack'(with 1 tote, container, and litter) is worth as much as a 6-high stack. With 2 totes, they're doing even better.

[RunawayEngineer]

Originally Posted by tStano

Container bots can get points on their own, assuming they're decent at their job.

They can push a tote into a scoring zone without a "tote manipulator"(possibly a stack of 2 straight from the human player). They can also have a driving alliance partner do this. They can then get litter from a human player, which is possible, as shown here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH0Gv2w8l0E

Then they can stack that container on top of the crate(or stack of 2 crates). This 'stack' is worth 12 points, 18 points if its 2 totes high. You could conceivably do this 7 times in a qualification match(if you get all containers from middle(which I imagine you'd start doing in auto), which is an appreciable number of points, 84 or 126. Depending on the efficiency of a tote bot(and the efficiency of a container bot), this could be more points than a tote bot in a match. Their 'stack'(with 1 tote, container, and litter) is worth as much as a 6-high stack. With 2 totes, they're doing even better.

With those kinds of numbers, I can see a very successful Alliance having 2 stacking robots and 1 Bin robot. The Bin machine will spend the match grabbing bins, placing Litter in them from the HP slot (directly or indirectly), placing the Bin either on a stack or out of the way (until a stack is ready), and repeating.
I think that this would fill out the match time for an average capability robot and add some decent points.
Operating on its own without the ability to lift totes at all, this machine could make 12 point stacks (pushing 1 tote up and placing a Littered Bin on top), which is (probably) easier than the equivalent 6-tall Tote stack.
Pro: A one trick pony is easier to optimize
Con: Dependent on other stackers for full potential; dependent on the # of Bins available
I think that a robot that can perform those tasks reliably will probably seed lower than the consistent Tote stackers, but would be valuable in Playoffs.

[MrForbes]

Without having tried to design a robot yet, my feeling is that a combination robot that can make small stacks, but reliably put a container upright on any stack, would get you further than a robot that can only make tall stacks, but not put a container on those tall stacks.

It won't be easy.

[Canon reeves]

Originally Posted by MrForbes

Without having tried to design a robot yet, my feeling is that a combination robot that can make small stacks, but reliably put a container upright on any stack, would get you further than a robot that can only make tall stacks, but not put a container on those tall stacks.

It won't be easy.

I originally thought this as well, but then I realized that if a container bot just put all the bins with litter onto atleast one grey tote, the good tote bot on the team could just lift that and cap their own taller stack with it. It would be difficult to stack a container on a tote stack of 4 (because of the height constraint), if the robot grabbed the container from the top lips that is. But it would be very easy for the container bot to put a container on top of two totes spit out by the human player, and then let the tote bot place it. I wrote a portion of my reasoning for container bot for my team, so here is that.

With three different shaped game elements, this game provides an opportunity to be stellar in one particular shape, and be very valuable to the alliance. Without a doubt top tier teams will have an effective tote stacking robot, some of them making even 6 high stacks. To perfectly compliment their abilities for a maximum score possible, a team would need to be able to put a recycling container on a stack at least two high, maybe even one high. If we were to be able to put a recycling bin on a stack at least two high consistently, we would undoubtedly be picked for eliminations. Figure One shows the different point values for the different combinations of stacks.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/41100?
Figure One
As you can see, just stacking on a two tote stack with a litter inside would give us 18 points, then if another team could stack that on another two stack tote, we would get a total of 30 points. With the three given bins, we could get at least 60 points a match just by having one robot on our alliance that can stack totes two high.
If we only had push bots on our alliance, we could score at least 18 points. This is possible because of two benefits from the feeder station. One, that the human player can stack two crates, with a slight bump of the first one from the robot. The other is that the human player can manipulate the litter into a recycling bin. Combine these two and you could have one push bot go to a feeder station and create a stack of two, then the other push it to one of the scoring platforms. Our robot will pick up one of the pre placed bins, go to the feeder station, and receive a pool noodle, then place the whole stack on the stack made by the kitbots. This could be repeated several times to gain 36 points using our preplaced bins.
Our main focus is eliminations, being picked by the right teams, and this year there are no shortage of advanced teams at our regional. If we are able to stack four bins with litter on totes consistently, we would without a doubt get picked. If we were on an alliance with an elite team capable of scoring totes at least four high, we would be able to score more than 120 points, and all we would have to do is put the recycle bin with litter on top of a grey tote since the tote bot can top his stack with a tote with a recycle bin already on it.
In elims, we could start by facing our bin on the left side of the field, then driving forward and picking up the bin, then backing all the way up into the auto zone. As soon as the match begins, we drive forward and load a litter into our bin, raise the bin, the human player puts out a tote, we set our bin with litter on top of the tote. We then drive to get the next bin, bring it to the human player, repeat the process, and then grab our third bin, repeat. Finally, we would go to the step and pick up a fourth bin, and if we have time take it to the feeder station and load it with litter, then place it on a tote. Every time we place a bin on a tote, we are relying on our alliance member to pick up the tote and either move it or score it. Unless we adapt our forklift to be able to lift both totes and recycle bins, which wouldn’t be hard because totes are several inches longer than the bins, so we could pick the totes up long ways without interfering with our main priority, the bins.

[MrForbes]

Originally Posted by Canon reeves

I originally thought this as well, but then I realized that if a container bot just put all the bins with litter onto atleast one grey tote, the good tote bot on the team could just lift that and cap their own taller stack with it. It would be difficult to stack a container on a tote stack of 4 (because of the height constraint), if the robot grabbed the container from the top lips that is. But it would be very easy for the container bot to put a container on top of two totes spit out by the human player, and then let the tote bot place it.

I don't see this happening....moving around a two tote stack with a container on top requires very careful, slow maneuvering, and if the container doesn't fall off, it will eat up a lot of time. Although if you have a design for a robot that can do it quickly, I'd love to be proven wrong.

[Canon reeves]

Originally Posted by MrForbes

I don't see this happening....moving around a two tote stack with a container on top requires very careful, slow maneuvering, and if the container doesn't fall off, it will eat up a lot of time. Although if you have a design for a robot that can do it quickly, I'd love to be proven wrong.

Maybe so, I'm unsure, I haven't been able to test it any, but if it isn't possible there won't stacks with 6 totes and a recycle container. I think it's more feasible if the container is just on one tote that is placed near the stack for the container bot to put it on, then the tote bot lifts it and puts it on top of the desired height, if it takes less than 30 seconds it could be worth it depending on the stack. If you had one robot that primarily stacked, another that placed the container on totes, and another that stacked the totes with containers on the stacks, you would have a pretty efficient and competitive alliance.

Here is Ri3D team greenhorn doing it with three, they moved relatively slow, but with two or one it would be even quicker. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6iuWBKRj4Q#t=206

[MrForbes]

Originally Posted by Canon reeves

If you had one robot that primarily stacked, another that placed the container on totes, and another that stacked the totes with containers on the stacks, you would have a pretty efficient and competitive alliance.

You sure would! But in real life, I don't see that happening in any of our qualifying matches at the regionals we're attending. I'm pretty sure we're going to need to be able to at least make short stacks, and put a container on top of them ourselves, if we want to be one of the teams picking an alliance.

[Skyehawk]

After some testing last night our team found that a stack of 6 totes is relatively stable. The container on top however... different story, but not impossible to move around. With a sturdy (and robust) mechanism, stacks of 6 totes + container + noodle shouldn't be that far out out of the reach of most teams. This is provided that teams demonstrate patience and good planning.

[Canon reeves]

Originally Posted by MrForbes

You sure would! But in real life, I don't see that happening in any of our qualifying matches at the regionals we're attending. I'm pretty sure we're going to need to be able to at least make short stacks, and put a container on top of them ourselves, if we want to be one of the teams picking an alliance.

Very understandable, I feel like this will be the situation at most regionals. At the very least if you had two push bots you could score a few 18 point stacks with some coordination from the team. Luckily the diameter of the Recycle Container is less than the length of a tote, so a passive forklift at two different hieghts would allow easy manipulation of both, but you couldn't stack the totes as high, but you could at least maybe two.

Best of luck this season!

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Jeffy

I think most bots that are tote-bots can become tote + container bots with a few small modifications.

I think a really efficient tote-bot is probably going to be a pretty inefficient container bot. A good tote-bot is going to be carrying several totes, and many mechanisms like that aren't going to modify easily into container movers.

Also, since my team has taken to calling the containers "recycling bins", we're calling these two options "Totes Ma Goats" and "Mercedes Bins". We're still looking at our feasibility for both designs at the moment.

[Dunngeon]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

I think a really efficient tote-bot is probably going to be a pretty inefficient container bot. A good tote-bot is going to be carrying several totes, and many mechanisms like that aren't going to modify easily into container movers.

Also, since my team has taken to calling the containers "recycling bins", we're calling these two options "Totes Ma Goats" and "Mercedes Bins". We're still looking at our feasibility for both designs at the moment.

I disagree, I believe they aren't mutually exclusive for excellence. However, I don't think converting a tote-stack bot to tote+bin bot is as simple as a few small modifications.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Dunngeon

I disagree, I believe they aren't mutually exclusive for excellence. However, I don't think converting a tote-stack bot to tote+bin bot is as simple as a few small modifications.

I wholeheartedly agree that an efficient tote+bin bot is possible, and I suspect there are a few dozen teams working on the design right now. It just that you have to pursue that integrated design up front, not as an add-on/patch later. Next time I'll add more weasel words than just "probably" and "many mechanisms".

[philso]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

Also, since my team has taken to calling the containers "recycling bins", we're calling these two options "Totes Ma Goats" and "Mercedes Bins".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qev-i9-VKlY

Are you going to name your robot "Janis"?