Contested Containers

[Munchskull]

This year the red and blue alliance may not be competing directly against one another match by match, however the are still competing for the Containers in the center, how do you thing those four contested Container will affect the game?

Will the majority holder score highest 10%/20%/30% of the time?

How will these four Containers shape Recycle Rush?

[Rick Wagner]

The containers on the step will be the key to the game this year. I think many teams will have an autonomous mode to get them, rather than get the autonomous points.

[Rangel(kf7fdb)]

Depending on how many robots are able to get containers in auto, we may even see The Container Agreement happening in non final matches. This would only really be a thing at champs if it happens at all.

[Munchskull]

That is what I am thinking. Part of my team (including me) wants a three tote auto however I am woundering whether the ability to grab the totes is going to be more important. Using my quick brain math if you pull the three tote auto off you get 20 points plus what ever your other teams can do most likely move so that would be a 24 pt auto. However is you could grab at least one Container you could get up to 30pt because you choose that instead. But that is with a six stack if you do a five stack it becomes a 26pt bonus and with a four stack it is a 22 pt bonus. Those are calculations done assuming you get a litter and I was not counting the 2 pt per Tote. So with out liter the profit drops down to, six stack= 24pt, five stack= 20pt, ect.

So my additional question is, should you go for 3 Totes during auto or the Containers?

[Rick Wagner]

For the top alliances and high scoring matches, the containers may prove to be the scarce resource. A weaker alliance against a strong alliance may find it beneficial to get the containers simply to deny them to the opposition.

That being said, getting containers in auto mode is not trivial. If totes are not moved out of the way, a long reach will be required.

[asid61]

One mentor suggested just a wedge sweeper mechanism to literally just wedge alll the upside down totes out of the way and throw all of the bins in the center onto your side. Because that's a passive component, it's definitely possible to have two or more of these robots on your team to grab as many bins as possible during auton.
Even though your seed is determined by your points, in elims the good teams will need more than three bins. Denying the bins to your opponent is pretty much a win, or at least a very severe blow, so being a second or third pick bot with a sweeper could work.

[wilderbuchanan]

Do you guys really think that that many Totes will be stacked. I mean the 30 at the feeder station plus 28 in the landfill. Thats 60 totes by itself. The time spent stacking all of those could be spent on stacking up to 7 recycling bins resulting in many more point. Also throw in the coopertition and i think that stacking 60 totes, unless a team develops some huge machine that can stack a tote a second etc, will be unlikely at most of the regional events. I do think that going in getting the recycling bins in autonomous could be very beneficial.

[Noudvanbrunscho]

My prediction of this game is that the Containers on the step are going to be very important in Saint Louis. I truly think that there are going to be teams who can get 2 or mabye even 4 Containers off the step during AUTO, and place them in the auto zone (those are worth points aswell!?). If your alliance has 7 Containers and your opponent only have 3, it's going to be very hard for them to beat you. Looking forward to see this strategy, but i think you won't see it in most regionals.

[RunawayEngineer]

Einstein is going to be decided by a race for the RCs in the middle.
At that level, stacking high is going to be commonplace, so they are going to be worth bundles of points. Also - teams at that level will run out of RCs every match. Between 6 high-caliber robots, the 10 most potent scoring items on the field will be scored every single match. The team who controls the most will win (a majority of the time).
Disallowing your opponent from using the most efficient scoring item alone is worth it - giving it to yourself is doubly worth it. Each one is worth potentially 6 points for the Litter score plus the height value - which is as much as 24. So there is 120 points in the middle of the field that could swing either way. Of course, not every one will be used to its maximum potential - but it is obvious to me that that many points is easily worth compromising other autonomous tasks.

[cglrcng]

Originally Posted by wilderbuchanan

Do you guys really think that that many Totes will be stacked. I mean the 30 at the feeder station plus 28 in the landfill. Thats 60 totes by itself. The time spent stacking all of those could be spent on stacking up to 7 recycling bins resulting in many more point. Also throw in the coopertition and i think that stacking 60 totes, unless a team develops some huge machine that can stack a tote a second etc, will be unlikely at most of the regional events. I do think that going in getting the recycling bins in autonomous could be very beneficial.

There is a maximum possibillity of up to 40 Totes for each (one side steals or captures the whole shelf, though rarely will that occur I would think), side in the landfill and 30 outside of the field (=70 possible total Grey Totes for 1 side, which would leave the other only 58 Tote Max., or some combination thereof) + a maximum of 7 RC's at the beginning of the game.

(Stealing or Capturing from the shelf all of both RC's and all the Grey Totes), is the smartest thing to attempt to do. 3 Robots building 6 high capped stacks will be fairly fast as many can stack locally in different areas, and deliver far more than 1 tote per trip. (One consistant tightly packed scoring platform wall 6 High w/ every other 6 High stack capped w/ an RC =at least 60 Totes+5 RC's+5 Litter for just 1 wall. There is another scoring platform to fill yet.

You just did not account for the other 12 Grey contested Totes also on the shelf, in your formula above. As more and more practice progresses, stacking will become second nature. And working together will become first nature. Stack, deliver stacks, someone backs into and packs the wall towards the backstop, cap the stack. Off to stack more. Tight locked in walls will be the big very stable winners!

There will be plenty of bots that can stack 3~5 high w/ an RC cap and deliver them to cap the shorter built tight packed stacks. A 1~2 high Tote Stack w/ an RC+Litter cap is very stable. Easy to cap an existing 4~5 high tight packed Tote stack on the platform without having to grapple that last
3" of the bottom of the RC and lift into place last. Lifting a short stack without driving anywhere will allow others from the other side to bottom feed in easily. There are many ways to work together to build those walls. Those that do work together well, will be rewarded highly.

Building a tight wall will require you to cap every other stack maximum though, not every stack, as the RC's are much wider at the tops than the bottoms.

[BERTEvan]

My team doesn't see that the containers on the step are crucial, due to the fact that games are based on points and not wins and losses. Can somebody give a detailed explanation of the importance of the step containers?

[SciBorg Dave]

During seeding matches the step can will not be important.
During elims very few teams will go for them.
When team reach worlds the further they go the more important they will become.

[Rick Wagner]

It's all about maximizing your point score. High points are high points whether at a regional or at Champs.

[IronicDeadBird]

Originally Posted by Rick Wagner

It's all about maximizing your point score. High points are high points whether at a regional or at Champs.

I can't quote everything you said enough. The game here is resource management and it is so well designed that the resource management changes and adapts to the level of play. This game is a mixture of optimization of a task and short vs long term rewards. Burst out points up front? Let the points mature with multipliers? I hope you don't mind this is going to be thrown at a certain team I work with.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by SciBorg Dave

During seeding matches the step can will not be important.
During elims very few teams will go for them.
When team reach worlds the further they go the more important they will become.

More or less this. These bins will only be a significant factor in a handful of playoffs matches prior to the championship event. At those very highest levels of play, they will be a huge deal. While we usually aim our design at elimination matches, we feared that designing our robot primarily around this capability (at the expense of other areas of gameplay) would not be a significant enough factor at our district events to be worth it. You have to qualify for those top levels of play before you can design a robot to win them.