Should the Number One seed be Alloud to pick the Number Two seed?

[SpaceBiz]

Ok, more so in the game this year, but it seems the first seed alliances who select the second seed are winning every regional. Is it just me or does it seem like this is not really in the spirit of FIRST?

If the two best teams almost always win together, why let them do it every single time? It makes it really hard, or at least overwhelmingly unlikely, for the number 7 or 8 eliminations alliance to win, while one lucky team that gets picked by the number 1 alliance in the second round basically gets a free ticket to worlds?

A perfect example of this is 1114 and 2056 at the waterloo regional. Their elim alliance scored about double that of the seccond best alliance.

Think about that.

1114 and 2056 would have both possibly made the finals each in an alliance by themselves. And the rules allow them to be in the same alliance together.

I think the number one through four seeded teams should not be allowed to pick each other. Thoughts?

See post 22 for the part of the argument I forgot.

(This post in no way represents the views of team 2537 as a whole. It is only an opinion of one of its members)

[faust1706]

This happens just about every year at many competitions. It goes away at st louis. Many teams deny higher seeds to form their own alliance, actually. The most denials I saw in a row were 3.

[Citrus Dad]

Originally Posted by faust1706

This happens just about every year at many competitions. It goes away at st louis. Many teams deny higher seeds to form their own alliance, actually. The most denials I saw in a row were 3.

We were denied 4 times on Curie in 2013. We won the division with 148 as our first pick (and 862 as our second). Ironically we had gotten to Champs by turning down another team at CVR and forming our own alliance in the #6 slot.

[Skyehawk]

Originally Posted by faust1706

This happens just about every year at many competitions. It goes away at st louis. Many teams deny higher seeds to form their own alliance, actually. The most denials I saw in a row were 3.

I haven't read the whole thread, but in 2013, in the Northern lights regional, there were 5 turn downs for the number one alliance. I know this isn't exactly a representation of worlds, but my point is still valid; sometimes you simply need to build your own alliance.

[Edit] After reading the thread: I want to piggyback off of what another mentor on 876 said:

Originally Posted by BJT

The spirit of FIRST can mean a lot of things. One of them I think is good honest competition and being rewarded for being the best. Penalizing the top 4 or 8 teams for their success would cause a lot of messy unintended consequences no matter how many feel-good terms we use to describe it.

Key phrase in this post (as I see): messy unintended consequences, and as it was brought up in a previous post:

Originally Posted by iVanDuzer

Then the Wildcard system came in, and there was a change almost overnight. No more boos at Alliance Selections! People were actually cheering during Eliminations! Some prominent posters on CD who were quite anti-1114/2056 suddenly became some of their biggest supporters. Teams actually got way better because suddenly, they didn't have to beat 1114/2056 (an incredibly daunting task), they just had to beat everyone else (still daunting, but way more manageable).

If anything allowing 1 to pick 2 and so on is good for FRC. With wildcards implemented good teams with amazing robots can do their thing, not being thrown off of their game by being handicapped for their success, not feeling lash back because they are good. Besides a team can only hold one spot to worlds anyway, if they win again it gets passed on to another team. And while it sucks to lose in the finals, if the winning alliance members already hold spots the playing field is leveled. Even if you are not walking away from a regional/district with a blue banner you are still walking out of there with a ticket for worlds. Is that so bad?
If you a "middle" team this still plays in your favor, there are eight second pick spots per event any one of which could get you into the finals for a win. Then there are several wildcards. Why wouldn't you try hard in more than one aspect of the competition? There are so many ways to win that you can't just get hung up on one.

-Skye

[stjonl]

The number one seed picking the number two seed was very common several years ago. Having that first pick is a reward all teams should strive for, and should not be limited in any way.

Before this year, the games we played for the last few years have trended for an alliance made up of robots with some different capabilities and strategies to be a strong alliance. This year being an all offense game, it’s a tall order to beat the two best teams when they are together on the same alliance. Limiting who the number one seed (or any seed) can pick, in any way, will cause problems.

With the current point system the way it is (and it's pretty good to start with), there is very little reason why (like one point) the number two seed would not accept the invite from the number one seed.

If there is going to be a change, you need to offer the other top seed alliance captain’s a reason to decline a higher seeded team invite. The only idea I currently have is to give the alliance captain’s, something like 2 or 3 points, each time their alliance advances in the playoff/elimination round. This idea is going to add a few more points to the maximum points available, but in my opinion, advancing alliance captains will have earned them and it just might mix up the alliance selection picks a little. Declining a higher alliance captain is not a bad thing; it only means the declining team wants to form their own alliance. This idea should make more teams willing to give it a try to be an alliance captain, because of the additional points possible.

[Joe G.]

Upsets can and do happen all the time (and with the playoff system as it is, they seem quite common this year), and anything else leads to sandbagging in quals. The #1 seed has earned the right to play with who they'd like to.

[maxxman]

If you are the number 1 seed you deserve to have the best chance to win the regional. If the way to victory is choosing to pick the #2 seed i see no problem with that.

It's a perk of being on one of the best teams in the world I guess

[TDav540]

Actually they haven't won EVERY regional. I agree with you, they have won a large proportion of them. However, Dallas had 118 (3-seed, 2nd Alliance Captain) win there. Additionally, at Virginia (where the 1st-seeded 1156 picked 2nd-seeded 1287), the second and third alliances were the two that participated in the finals.

I don't disagree that there are a large number of times where this does occur, but I suspect (just my speculation, I haven't run any numbers) that the difference between one-seeded teams winning this year is not that different from previous years.

[dcarr]

Originally Posted by SpaceBiz

Ok, more so in the game this year,

I don't think anything is different about Recycle Rush compared to previous games in this regard.

Perhaps you could argue that the rankings are more accurate so that the #2 seed is more likely to be the second best robot, although some may disagree.

Telling an alliance captain to pick something other than the best robot available to execute their strategy seems contradictory to the "competition" aspect of FRC.

[GeeTwo]

And if there were such a rule, would it encourage the second best team to dumb it down to fifth place? There's no need for any rule that encourages teams to play below their abilities.

[Abhishek R]

It's a competition...the number one and two seeds earned their spots (moreso in this game due to the ranking system) and have the right to pick whoever they want. If anything, it would probably just encourage sandbagging/throwing matches.

[tStano]

Originally Posted by Abhishek R

If anything, it would probably just encourage sandbagging/throwing matches.

If one were interested, it would be unbelievably easy to sandbag this year too, seeing as you can just knock over your own stacks, making the only points that could possibly be scored by non-sandbagging alliance partners coopertition/unprocessed litter/landfill litter. And if you wanted, you could block the coop step pretty easily.

[Botsup]

Allowed NOT aloud........ (alloud isn't even a word.....)

[Owen Busler]

At NVTVR last weekend number one ranked 303 picked number two 2852 as our first pick. We lost in the semi finals. Granted it was in part to our robot having electrical problems and shutting of in the third match, but its not always 1 and 2.

[BBray_T1296]

Yes.

Regionals/DCMPs should send the best robots they have to represent them at the world championship level.

While the serpentine draft goes against this principle, it does create situations in which the elimination matches are not always a complete blowout.

Teams like 1114 and 2056 didn't just get their 1st/2nd place seeds handed to them on a silver platter. They worked tirelessly throughout the 6 week build season and in the pits as well as on the field to earn their places. They are the 1%, not because they cheat, or because of a fluke, or an unfair advantage, but by honest, self-constructed success.

Tearing them down (or handicapping them) in an attempt to "level the playing field" completely unfair to them and un-GP.

FRC would be massively more fun if we could double the #5-8 alliance's elimination averages rather than half the #1-4's.