Pros and Cons of Defense

[Loose Screw]

With the season almost over, we've gone through 7 weeks of "competition". We've seen stack after stack scored, and the heartbreak of a 42-point stack falling over. We blinked and missed robots steal center RCs right out from the competition. I would now like to start a discussion if future FRC games should eliminate defense. Here are my pro's and con's.

Pro's of no defense

* With no defense, FIRST could stop the W/L ranking system and try out the average score system. With this new ranking system, a 100-150 game would be more beneficial for both teams compared to a 10-15 game.

* Teams can expand to any horizontal distance. In the past, teams have been limited to how far outside of their frame perimeter they could extend. This was to prevent robots from being damaged. With no defensive interaction going on, teams can now expand as far as they want. With the weight limit being the same, it provides that much more of a challenge for teams taking advantage of this. We can see awesome designs such as 148's Batman and Robin, 3322's giant wingspan, and even robots with no drivetrain!

* With no defense, robot-robot penalties are very rare. 2014 week 1 was won by penalty points. Without defense, robots can't smash others and win.

Con's of no defense

* Without robot-robot interaction, games were rather stale. If a teams could consistantly put out 2-42pt stacks, there wasn't any difference in how they did it.

* There are no jukes. No 360 no-scopes. There is very little outplay.

* There were little-to-no upsets. In Michigan, 18/19 of the events the #1 alliance won, Including MSC. I still remember MSC 2011 when the #1 alliance lost to the #8 alliance from strategy alone. The #1 robot didn't break, no big penalties, just strategy. You'll never have such an upset like that without defense.

Recycle Rush does have a bit of defense, and that itself is causing controversy. The only defense you can play (outside of a really good noodle throw) is obtaining the center RCs in auto. That is it. The reason it's controversal is because RCs are worth so much, if you lose the RC race, you lose the match. I'm really curious as to why the GDC added this to a game with no defense.

Those are my thoughts on the subject. If you have anything to add, please do so.

[Sunshine]

Many have complained about the lack of defense. We were delighted to see this. Why? Year after year we have created a competitive robot. But we do not have the facilities to produce what I would characterize as an industrial type robot that will hold up to the constant pounding. A robot that could constantly take the punishment of a contact to contact defensive game without some type of breakage or failure. We envied those teams that could build a bot that withstood the punishment. This year our robot has had zero breakage or need for major repair (knock on wood) because of the lack of defense. No defense has benefitted our limitations in making a robot as robust as the elite teams.

[BrennanB]

Originally Posted by Sunshine

Many have complained about the lack of defense. We were delighted to see this. Why? Year after year we have created a competitive robot. But we do not have the facilities to produce what I would characterize as an industrial type robot that will hold up to the constant pounding. A robot that could constantly take the punishment of a contact to contact defensive game without some type of breakage or failure. We envied those teams that could build a bot that withstood the punishment. This year our robot has had zero breakage or need for major repair (knock on wood) because of the lack of defense. No defense has benefitted our limitations in making a robot as robust as the elite teams.

We built our 2014 robot using a chop saw and a $50 drill press and managed to make a fairly sturdy robot. If we can, everyone can

[GreyingJay]

Originally Posted by BrennanB

We built our 2014 robot using a chop saw and a $50 drill press and managed to make a fairly sturdy robot. If we can, everyone can

And you made it to Worlds!

For reasons I can't yet officially disclose, hearing that fact about your robot was very encouraging. As is your overall success as a community based team. You are certainly being looked upon as a role model!

[connor.worley]

Originally Posted by BrennanB

We built our 2014 robot using a chop saw and a $50 drill press and managed to make a fairly sturdy robot. If we can, everyone can

Did you experience week 1 high speed ramming?

[BrennanB]

Originally Posted by connor.worley

Did you experience week 1 high speed ramming?

No. We competed week 2 and 5. Doesn't mean we didn't deal with some serious rams (and tips)

[Loose Screw]

Originally Posted by BrennanB

No. We competed week 2 and 5.

That explains it. Week 1 devolved into battlebots.

[IronicDeadBird]

Originally Posted by Loose Screw

That explains it. Week 1 devolved into battlebots.

I wouldn't go that far and say that those who participate in week 1 events just resorted to battle bots. When most people are thrust into the unknown people stick to what they know. A good games meta won't be defined in a week.

[Loose Screw]

Originally Posted by IronicDeadBird

I wouldn't go that far and say that those who participate in week 1 events just resorted to battle bots. When most people are thrust into the unknown people stick to what they know. A good games meta won't be defined in a week.

The meta definately changed after week 1. The week 1 strategy was to hit a team with an extended appendage such that their appendage contacts something inside your frame perimeter. Because the rule didn't have the case for who initiated the contact, you could effectively stop a robot from scoring while making them cause penalties. They corrected this after week 1 with the rule saying you can't force your opponents to get penalties.

[BrennanB]

Originally Posted by Loose Screw

That explains it. Week 1 devolved into battlebots.

From firsthand experience I would say Championships was more agressive than week one.

[Kayla_Wallet]

Originally Posted by BrennanB

No. We competed week 2 and 5. Doesn't mean we didn't deal with some serious rams (and tips)

My team had a pretty major malfunction- match one of our week one competition at Southfield, because I had listened to another team member's suggestions on how to program our autonomous and did it based on seconds at his insistence, and that included turns, we kind of sort of maybe broke a yellow tote and slammed into the left wall and driver station wall.

[Roboshant]

Originally Posted by Kayla_Wallet

My team had a pretty major malfunction- match one of our week one competition at Southfield, because I had listened to another team member's suggestions on how to program our autonomous and did it based on seconds at his insistence, and that included turns, we kind of sort of maybe broke a yellow tote and slammed into the left wall and driver station wall.

Do you have match video ?

[Anthony Galea]

Originally Posted by Roboshant

Do you have match video ?

Here it is: https://youtu.be/2_-p9oAxuT8

[MaGiC_PiKaChU]

Originally Posted by Kayla_Wallet

My team had a pretty major malfunction- match one of our week one competition at Southfield, because I had listened to another team member's suggestions on how to program our autonomous and did it based on seconds at his insistence, and that included turns, we kind of sort of maybe broke a yellow tote and slammed into the left wall and driver station wall.

That's why i don't like playing with autonomous at events... We still did it in our last quals and playoffs on Tesla to match with 2122. Worked well on the first try, but didn't work in the playoffs

[Mr. Lim]

Originally Posted by connor.worley

Did you experience week 1 high speed ramming?

4476 was probably doing most of the ramming!