Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League

[adias.angel]

Hi everyone,
For the last year our first affiliate partner in Michigan has been setting non-standard age ranges for our FLL and FTC programs. They have excluded middle school students from FLL and high school students from FTC. It has caused problems not only for our students who are not mentally or emotionally ready to move up but also puts a bigger burden on the coaches, schools and organizations that run these teams.

We need the FIRST community to help to bring these issues out in the open and make sure that this doesn't happen in other states. We are asking US FIRST to require all affiliate partners to follow the age requirements as publish by US FIRST. If you have a moment, please consider signing our petition:

https://www.change.org/p/us-first-fi...liate-partners

The more signatures we get, the better chance we will have of getting US FIRST to hear our case. Thanks for your support, Carla

[Michael Corsetto]

Do you have any data to support that FiM is "killing" FLL?

You have made emotional and anecdotal cases for disagreeing with the structure FiM has established. Do you have data to support this petition?

Namely, here are some basic data points to look at:

• Jr. FLL Team Growth Annually in FIM compared to Nationally
• FLL Team Growth Annually in FIM compared to Nationally
• FTC Team Growth Annually in FIM compared to Nationally
• FRC Team Growth Annually in FIM compared to Nationally

These statistics shouldn't be too hard to find for someone who knows where to look.

The results of this information could then be extrapolated to students impacted by the progression of FIRST programs in Michigan, and an informed conclusion as to the effectiveness of FiM's model could be better evaluated.

I'm very interested in hearing some data that supports or refutes the effectiveness of the FiM model.

-Mike

[MichaelMcQuinn]

Do have a reason to why they are doing it? After all, I'm sure they are more interested in starting more teams than restrict them.

[Basel A]

Okay, just to be totally clear here (and the petition makes this relatively clear), FiM is not killing FLL. FiM has the position that FLL should be elementary schools only, FTC should be middle, and FRC should be high. Therefore there is less support for teams that deviate from this (although there's nothing FiM can do to teams that register despite not following FiM's structure).

Now, I'm aware of very reasonable opposition to this position. I know our FRC team is considering starting some intra-team VEX/FTC teams, and FiM's preferred structure does make us more likely to go with VEX. Does that mean FiM is necessarily wrong in their position? That's up for everybody to decide. I doubt we'll hear FiM's side of the story because their decision-maker(s) don't tend to get involved on this forum.

[MichaelMcQuinn]

Originally Posted by Basel A

Okay, just to be totally clear here (and the petition makes this relatively clear), FiM is not killing FLL. FiM has the position that FLL should be elementary schools only, FTC should be middle, and FRC should be high. Therefore there is less support for teams that deviate from this (although there's nothing FiM can do to teams that register despite not following FiM's structure).

Now, I'm aware of very reasonable opposition to this position. I know our FRC team is considering starting some intra-team VEX/FTC teams, and FiM's preferred structure does make us more likely to go with VEX. Does that mean FiM is necessarily wrong in their position? That's up for everybody to decide. I doubt we'll hear FiM's side of the story because their decision-maker(s) don't tend to get involved on this forum.

Is it shown that deviating from the "recommend" as a team more successful?

[adias.angel]

Originally Posted by Basel A

Does that mean FiM is necessarily wrong in their position? That's up for everybody to decide.

As part of the FIRST organization, teams across the country should have a similar experience. Allowing certain state to deviate from what the national criteria is starting to cause an issue. We have coaches forming teams with the national age standards, only to find out later that Michigan is not following the standards and they are not allowed to participate.

[Loose Screw]

FiM has always tried new things for Michigan. The district system was tested in Michigan, and FiM has turned it into a very fluid system. MSC this year is proof of that. 101 of 102 teams having an average of over 100 points shows the level of competition that Michigan has, and I think there's a lot going on in the entire FiM program that assists with this.

These statements are my own and may not be the opinions of FiM

I personally love the system that FiM has. I think this system should be incorporated by FIRST for these reasons:

I believe this system works out so well because every group is interacting with each other. FRC students coach JFLL teams and mentor FLL/FTC teams, and FTC teams are encouraged to mentor FLL teams.

JFLL kids learn are introduced to research and legos, FLL kids learn autonomous programming and presentation skills, FTC kids learn how to build a robot that can directly compete against others, and explore community outreach, and FRC kids do all of this at a very high competitive level. Each program builds upon the previous, and this is why Michigan FRC teams have that level of quality.

I don't know the exact numbers, but I know JFLL, FTC, and FRC teams have increased in FiM every year for a while now. The last FTC State event had to be split into two divisions and move into a new venue, and MSC had 102 teams in it.

As for FLL shrinking, I do not know if that's true or not. As for myself, I would have loved to have joined FTC as a student if there was a team in my school already. The gap between FLL and FRC is huge, and I would recommend every student to follow FiM's guidelines.

Having coached a FTC team that went to Iowa City Super-Regionals, I can go on in great detail of the difference between High School FTC teams and Jr. High School FTC teams. However, I think those students are missing out on the bigger challenge which is FRC.

TL;DR:
I believe FiM has an excellent system, and FIRST should adopt these guidelines. FIRST's goal is to increase the quanity and quality of FRC teams, and this system is the best way of doing so.

[Jalerre]

I didn't start doing robotics until my freshman year of high school. I did not go through all the levels of FIRST. While I did not start with FTC, I started with Vex. There was no way I could have jumped straight to FRC that year. Vex gave me a solid knowledge base about the basics of robotics and the competition environment. It would have been way too intimidating to have started in FRC.

Just my 2¢.

[Michael Corsetto]

Originally Posted by Loose Screw

FIRST's goal is to increase the quanity and quality of FRC teams, and this system is the best way of doing so.

This actually isn't FIRST's goal, although it might be a result of FIRST pursuing their stated Mission and Vision.

FiM has been more explicit in their goals to grow and sustain FRC in their state.

[Mike Schreiber]

Originally Posted by adias.angel

They have excluded middle school students from FLL and high school students from FTC. It has caused problems not only for our students who are not mentally or emotionally ready to move up but also puts a bigger burden on the coaches, schools and organizations that run these teams.

I am a firm believer that what works in one region may not work in another. FiM's model works for them. They are not forcing it on you. Why require them to follow what you believe is the right model.

Edit: Woops I misread OP. They have forced this on you. Disregard my argument.

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

Do you have any data to support that FiM is "killing" FLL?

You have made emotional and anecdotal cases for disagreeing with the structure FiM has established. Do you have data to support this petition?

The above argument has nothing to do with growth of FRC. So I don't think data is really necessary to support this claim. Can't really argue with how someone else feels about a decision.

The thread title implies that Michigan will "kill" FLL with its model. I think it's fair to say the title is quite the hyberbole and that Michigan's numbers prove it is not killing the program.

[Michael Corsetto]

Originally Posted by Mike Schreiber

...Michigan's numbers prove...

What numbers?

[Mike Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

What numbers?

Michigan had 454 FLL teams last year. Not 'Killed'. I don't have historic data.

[BSV]

Originally Posted by Mike Schreiber

Michigan had 454 FLL teams last year. Not 'Killed'. I don't have historic data.

The telling number will be the number of FLL teams/kids involved in FLL next year, since (as I understand it) this change is for next season.

[Allison K]

Originally Posted by Basel A

Okay, just to be totally clear here (and the petition makes this relatively clear), FiM is not killing FLL. FiM has the position that FLL should be elementary schools only, FTC should be middle, and FRC should be high. Therefore there is less support for teams that deviate from this (although there's nothing FiM can do to teams that register despite not following FiM's structure).
...

An email went out earlier this week that made it pretty clear that teams outside of the FiM progression will not be supported (or possibly not allowed?). The beginning of the message is below...

Teams
As the FIRST website opens for registration of FLL and FTC, I want to clarify how the Michigan progression differs from the US FIRST progression. Teams inside of Michigan must follow our progression. This is the only way to have team within Michigan.

Here is our progression:
FRC High School only
FTC Middle School only
(as defined by your school district)
FLL Late Elementary
(4th grade to end of your elementary schools)
Jr. FLL Early Elementary K-3

While no new middle school FLL teams may be started, there are some middle school FLL teams that have been around since before we started FTC. By next year (Sept 2016) they will all have to be aligned.

So even if we were to register a middle school FLL team so that we could get a field set up kit we still wouldn't have competition opportunities, which puts quite a damper on the experience.

[Madison]

Are the Affiliates doing this with FIRST's approval?