Alliance Captain versus last pick in Alliance Selection

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Interesting to see that so far, success and failure has been defined by blue banners in this thread. In one case, being picked 23rd was considered a better success than being the 2nd alliance captain because of the final result.

Sean's post in another thread reminded me of a couple of thought experiments that I often pose to people in FRC. I thought it might generate some interesting discussion here.

1. You're competing at a 30 team regional, your last event of the season, and your team is not qualified to attend the Championship. Would you rather be:
A) The number 4 Alliance Captain and lose in the quarterfinals OR
B) The last pick of Alliance Selection of the #1 alliance (A.K.A. The 24th pick) and win the Regional

2. You're competing in a division at Championship. Would you rather be:
A) The number 4 Alliance Captain and lose in the division quarterfinals OR
B) The last pick of Alliance Selection of the #1 alliance (A.K.A. The 24th pick) and win Championship

The spread of responses I've seen have usually been about 50-50 for question #1 and 25-75 for question #2. Curious to see what people here think.

[Jon Stratis]

Personally, I would always prefer the "control your destiny" approach and be an alliance captain (or I should say be in position to be a captain... Accepting an invitation from a higher ranked captain is always a good option too!).

For me, it's not about winning a blue banner. It's about the experience my students have at the event. And frankly, I just think it's a better experience to be an alliance captain, formulate your alliance according to your scouting information, and providing the leadership the alliance needs to be successful. Being a first pick for another alliance gives you some of this as well, as it can then be a join decision for the second pick. Whether we win or lose doesn't really matter.

[Richard Wallace]

I tend to think about FRC from a district point of view these days .

In practice, the decision would be made without knowing the event outcome (i.e., lose in QF vs. win event) so the conditional decision (with given outcome) would have a different bias.

Playing robots late on a Saturday afternoon is one of best experiences FRC student team members can have, and it is pretty good for mentors as well. On that basis I choose B both times (conditionally) but would choose A both times if the outcome were not given.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Richard Wallace

I tend to think about FRC from a district

Agreed, my answers would change a lot if we were competing under the district qualification system.

[The other Gabe]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

Agreed, my answers would change a lot if we were competing under the district qualification system.

+1; my team didn't win an even this year but got to Worlds, while last year we won a district and a district chairman's award and didn't qualify. in the case of a district, I'd rather my team be a captain.

that being said, at a regional competition, I'd rather win something that qualifies my team for champs (whether it's being the 24th pick, getting engineering inspiration, or whatever), because I firmly believe that championships is one of the absolute best experiences one can have. once my team's at champs though, I want to win on personal merit- scouting, robot skills, etc. so while I wouldn't mind being the 24th pick, if it was what our performance made us deserve, I'd rather be ranked higher if we performed in a way that made us deserve that ranking. I never go to worlds expecting to be on einstein (well, except freshman year, but that doesnt count because I didnt understand what world-class play looked like at that point ), because you can be the best robot in the world, and not make it due to any number of reasons.

also, being a 22nd pick (it's almost a 24th, just like we almost won our division) this year at champs showed me that later picks can be done to fill an extremely important niche role in an alliance (uprighting cans was ours), and aren't always the same as late picks at districts/small regionals. or they can be overlooked: 1671 was the 25th pick on the alliance that won einstein, and they could make 3 6-high stacks on a good day

TLDR: I like going to champs, but once there, I want my team to be ranked as well as it deserves, and just have a fun time while I'm there regardless of the outcomes. also late picks can be vital

[Knufire]

Simply put, #blubannerz.

[MaGiC_PiKaChU]

On that perspective, i'd feel better to loose in division semis as an alliance captain or 1st pick rather than going on Einstein as a 3rd pick and not even playing

[Lij2015]

Captain at the regional level and Captain at Champs(but only by a slight bit), because I like captaining and at that last slot unless you're at the most competitive regional ever you probably wouldn't get selected or have a good champs showing(not experience however because it would be good for your team).

For Champs, my (now former) team made a push this and last year to be a team that gets to champs frequently and to make elims and specifically to not be a backup bot... so I'm gonna with captaining as well. The 4th slot gives me a weird vibe though cause that means you probably didn't scout very well, you yourself might not have deserved it, or something broke.

Also, my team literally did the 1A and 2B last year and it isn't that bad other than knowing people didn't scout except your alliance captain.

However 2B gets you on Einstein and being on Einstein is an amazing experience for drive team members even if you aren't playing

[jajabinx124]

1A and 2B for me.

1A because I rather be an alliance captain and learn from what caused our alliance to get knocked out in the quarters rather than be picked last at a regional (I wouldn't complain for either scenarios, but I'd prefer 1A). I rather use it as a learning experience.

2B because being picked at champs is pretty impressive, and so is being picked last. I wouldn't mind being ranked 4th either and losing in quarter finals, that itself is an accomplishment (being ranked 4th and competing in championship elims).

[Ari423]

<long story> So this year at Midknight Mayhem we surprised ourselves and ended in 7th seed, which meant we would be an alliance captain. This was my first competition experience as team captain, and our team's first time being an alliance captain at any competition in many years. I realized while I was standing waiting for my turn to make our first pick that it is possible for us to be picked by a higher seed alliance, and I would have to choose whether or not to accept. We are a small program, so I wasn't in contact with any kind of scouting group in the stands to make decisions for me. And any team there who did scouting or knew us from the regular season knew that we could really help an alliance if and only if we had strong alliance partners, so getting picked by those strong possible alliance partners wasn't out of the question. What I decided in the moment while I was standing there was that I would accept if we were picked by another alliance captain. Sure being an alliance captain would be cool, but winning the event would be even cooler, so we should do whatever it takes to try to win the event, even if it means not being an alliance captain. We worked under/with some great teams this year and contributed to every alliance we were in, even as a 2nd pick, let alone a 1st pick. In the end we didn't get picked, and we got out in quarter finals as 5th alliance captains. It was still a great experience, but I think I would have been happier if we would have been picked by a top alliance captain and won the event. Blue banners aren't everything, but they definitely help a small team that is struggling with sponsorship, membership, and recognition. Now this is different than either scenario presented in the OP because it was an off-season event, but the principles still stand (it's probably closer to CMP than a regional because winning doesn't qualify you for anything else). </long story>

That was my experience with this decision. I hope to be lucky enough to have to make it again in a regular season competition.

[asid61]

If you win a regional, you get to experience championships. That's worth more to me than being an alliance captain.
If you win champsionships, it's a massive plus for team morale, even if you weren't the first pick. Plus, in 10 years, nobody really remembers how you won (except mentors); they just see the banner.

[BJT]

We are most of the time a top 8 robot in the regionals we attend, but rarely are we in the top 1 or 2. After a while, losing in the quarters or semis as the #4 captain starts to get old. We know that we had a good year, but it sure would be nice to win once in a while, no matter how it happens

[EricLeifermann]

At the end of the day it's alot easier to go to sponsors and ask for things when you have hardware to show.

Also while winning isn't everything ask those teams who rarely if ever win what winning does for their team the next year. Sometimes being that team who might just be along for the ride can do more than being that middle 1st round pick.

Generally I'd take qualifying for champs and then alliance captain at champs but I took it from the perspective I mentioned above and voted for both option B.

Ask 5012 if they'd give up their banner and trophy to be the #4 alliance captain on Newton this year...

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by EricLeifermann

Ask 5012 if they'd give up their banner and trophy to be the #4 alliance captain on Newton this year...

For sure, I'm certain that most World Champs wouldn't trade their banner in this situation. However, one of the reasons I posted this is that I had a discussion with a member of a past World Champion who said they felt their Championship "didn't count" because they weren't the Alliance Captain or first pick. It was a perspective I didn't expect to hear from someone who had a gold medal to show from the situation.

[Jay O'Donnell]

Originally Posted by Karthik

For sure, I'm certain that most World Champs wouldn't trade their banner in this situation. However, one of the reasons I posted this is that I had a discussion with a member of a past World Champion who said they felt their Championship "didn't count" because they weren't the Alliance Captain or first pick. It was a perspective I didn't expect to hear from someone who had a gold medal to show from the situation.

Given I don't know which team you are talking about, I can see this person's opinion making sense if they didn't play a huge role in the alliances success. Some late picks are very valuable and shouldn't feel this way (16 in 2012 and 610 in 2013 come to mind), but some late picks don't really do much and I can understand it not feeling like they deserve the win. Getting carried through eliminations isn't the greatest feeling in the world. In the end it comes down to the team's goals.