withholding allowance??

[Team5860-Alex]

I know that there is a 30lb withholding allowence we can add to pur robot but what if we took 10 lbs off? Can we add a different 10 lbs back on during our 6 hour bag time or does this count towards the 30lbs. For example we want to change our shooter to a new style but need the other 30lbs of bag room for our arm system, is this legal?

[rich2202]

I don't know the details of the District rules, but think about it this way: Whatever you can do at a Regional.

So, the 30# is a static one-time 30# of parts until the District Event is over. You can add 10# to your robot during the 6 hour period. Taking weight off the Robot is not relevant. That 10# of parts added to your robot counts against your 30# limit for the entire period. So, you have 20# remaining of your Withholding Allowance (not 30# again). So, what you propose to do (10# during the 6 hour period, and 30# at the District) is not permitted.

I have no idea if you have to "declare" your 30# prior to the first 6 hour period. If not, that gives you one advantage over a Regional. Your 30# is "flexible" as your work on the robot.

Note: The 30# is only for fabricated parts. So, if you can leave the motors off, and add COTS Motors (or other parts) during the 6 hour window, then the COTS parts do not count against the 30#. For example: Let's say the Shooter weighs 10# with the motors, and 6# without the motors. You have a 6# shooter without motors when you unbag for the 6 hour period. You then attach 4# of COTS motors to your shooter, and then mount that onto the robot. For Witholding purposes, you only used 6# of fabricated parts, not the 10# weight of the entire assembly.

[Jon Stratis]

R19 states, in part:

The WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE is a static set of items that shall not exceed 30 lbs.

The word you want to pay attention to there is "static". That means that you can't swap parts in and out of your bag during unbag periods for district events like I think you want to do. You can do work during those unbag periods, any anything fabricated during those periods is fair game, but anything fabricated while the robot is locked up, or anything that does not get locked up when the bag is locked, needs to be included in the withholding allowance.

The intent of the 6 hours of unbagging for district teams is to replace the practice day that regionals have. At a regional, a team brings in their 30 lbs to start, then have the day to work on the robot. They don't get to bring in 30 lbs, remove 10 lbs, then bring in another 10 lbs.

[hrench]

Originally Posted by Team5860-Alex

For example we want to change our shooter to a new style but need the other 30lbs of bag room for our arm system, is this legal?

I'm pretty sure bag-and-tag and the withholding allowance is designed to discourage exactly this.

You can't design a new better robot after bag-day and expect to compete with it, at least not at your first regional...you can only make it better 30 lbs at a time.

[Jake177]

Per R18 (Game Manual Section 4.6) when you open your bag before an event, anything added to the bag counts against your 30lb withholding allowance for that event, with the exception of:

1. Commercial off the Shelf (COTS) items in the condition you received them from the manufacturer
2. Fabricated parts produced during the current robot access period.

From your post, it sounds like you have two mechanisms that you would like to add to your bag, one weighing 10lbs and one weighing 30lbs. (Removing something from the bag has no effect on this.) So, how do you fit 40lbs of robot into a 30lb withholding allowance? My best piece of advice would be to remove any COTS components from the two mechanisms before you unbag. You can reassemble them once the bag is open, and as long as the COTS parts were in their original state (e.g. gear boxes fully disassembled) when you opened the bag they will not count against your 30lbs. You could also try taking advantage of #2 by manufacturing some components for these mechanisms while your bag is open.

[Team5860-Alex]

Originally Posted by Jake177

Per R18 (Game Manual Section 4.6) when you open your bag before an event, anything added to the bag counts against your 30lb withholding allowance for that event, with the exception of:

1. Commercial off the Shelf (COTS) items in the condition you received them from the manufacturer
2. Fabricated parts produced during the current robot access period.

From your post, it sounds like you have two mechanisms that you would like to add to your bag, one weighing 10lbs and one weighing 30lbs. (Removing something from the bag has no effect on this.) So, how do you fit 40lbs of robot into a 30lb withholding allowance? My best piece of advice would be to remove any COTS components from the two mechanisms before you unbag. You can reassemble them once the bag is open, and as long as the COTS parts were in their original state (e.g. gear boxes fully disassembled) when you opened the bag they will not count against your 30lbs. You could also try taking advantage of #2 by manufacturing some components for these mechanisms while your bag is open.

Ok that helps however it raises a new question: does any permanent weight to your robot within the 6 hours count as bag weight. To specify put the 10lb item on before competition and just bring the 30lbs extra to put on later

[logank013]

Originally Posted by Team5860-Alex

Ok that helps however it raises a new question: does any permanent weight to your robot within the 6 hours count as bag weight. To specify put the 10lb item on before competition and just bring the 30lbs extra to put on later

Remember that COTS parts and Bumpers are not included in this 30 pound withholding allowance as also stated in R15.

Example 1: A team creates 10 lbs of FABRICATED ITEMS after Stop
Build Day. During their first Robot Access Period before their first event,
they install these items on the ROBOT and bag them with the ROBOT.
The team may bring up to 20 lbs. of FABRICATED ITEMS (which may
be items removed from the ROBOT before bagging at the end of the
Robot Access Period) with them to the event.
Example 2: A team creates 30 lbs of FABRICATED ITEMS after Stop
Build Day. During their first Robot Access Period before their first event,
they install these items on the ROBOT and bag them with the ROBOT.
The team may not bring any FABRICATED ITEMS (including any initially
bagged on Stop Build Day and removed during the Robot Access
Period) with them to the event.

Good examples under R18 are above. In that case, no. If 10 lbs are put on in the robot access period, you can only bring 20 lbs to competitions

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Team5860-Alex

Ok that helps however it raises a new question: does any permanent weight to your robot within the 6 hours count as bag weight. To specify put the 10lb item on before competition and just bring the 30lbs extra to put on later

Short answer is no, you have a 30lb withholding allowance and that is the total it doesn't matter if you attach/put it all of it in the bag during your 6hrs, bring it all to the event or some combination of the two.

Now there are ways to maximize the amount of stuff you can add to the robot.

Anything that is fabricated during the access period and placed in the bag until the next access period or event does not count as part of your withholding allowance. Example: You open your bag for 2 hrs and during that time you have one group of students assembling the COTS transmission and motor while another group of students work on fabricating the other parts of the mechanism. You do not finish the fabrication in that first 2hrs so you place anything that you have fabricated along with that assembled motor and transmission in the bag. In your next 2hr period you finish fabricating parts for that mechanism but do not have time to attach the motor and transmission to it. So again you put it all in the bag. In your final 2hr access period you assemble the transmission and motor to the mechanism and attach it or do not attach it to the robot. None of those items would count against your withholding allowance.

The key to this is that any fabrication or assembly is done during an access period and is put in the bag between access periods or the event even if it is not in its finished state.

Another example. You have a 35 lb mechanism but 10 lbs is made up of COTS motors, transmissions and/or pneumatic cylinders. Before your access period of the event you remove those COTS parts and return them to their COTS state. That means returning them to their as purchased state. For something like a transmission that means total disassembly if it can not be purchased in an assembled state. For motors that means removing the terminals and pinion gear. For pneumatic cylinders that would mean removing the fittings, clevis on the rod and potentially reinstalling the pivot pin if it was removed. You now have 25lbs of fabricated parts and you can then assemble the COTS parts and attach them in your access time or at the event again with the requirement that if it is done in an access period that it goes in the bag between access periods and/or the event.

[engunneer]

Two items:

1. This topic is posted in a weird forum. Try Technical Discussion or Rules/Strategy in the future. The Mods can move this for you if you ask them.

2. There is one way to fit 40 lbs in your open bag time. If you build the 10# part completely from scratch while doing out-of-bag time, starting from COTS parts and uncut material - new metal, everything, then it doesn't count against your 30# WA. anything made from scratch during the out of bag time is just like you made it in your pit from raw material.

The warning here is that if you use the whole 30# to bring a mechanism to the event made outside of the unbagged time, you now have NO weight allowance left for ANY other non-COTS spare parts. Raw material does not count for this, but even little brackets you have spares of that you made, or extra wheel spacers, or assembled wheels+sprockets for your drivetrain ALL COUNT.

[Brandon_L]

You can bring 30lb of non COTS robot parts to the event to add to the robot when it is unbagged, it does not matter what it is (as long as its legal per other rules). If you remove 10lbs of robot before bagging, you can add that 10lbs back + 20lbs of other parts, or 30lbs of new robot parts.

[jwfoss]

Originally Posted by hrench

You can't design a new better robot after bag-day and expect to compete with it, at least not at your first regional...you can only make it better 30 lbs at a time.

30lbs of custom parts at a time.

[CristinaK]

What counts as static in regards to the 30lbs?

[maxnz]

Don't forget that motors with connectors attached are legal COTS parts per R13-D

[ollien]

Originally Posted by maxnz

Don't forget that motors with connectors attached are legal COTS parts per R13-D

I'll see if I can find it but I'm 99% sure that there was a QA that said that this was not true for the withholding allowance, and any motor with connectors was considered fabricated.

EDIT: Found it