Are 8 play regional reasonable?

[TCMJ1816]

While watching Top 25 last night they brought up the point that many regional competition only offer 8 qualification plays per team. In Minnesota we have 208 teams, and a vast majority of those teams only get one event a year.

I see 2 major issues with this:
-This make the $5000 it costs to register for events pretty crazy, $625 a match isn't appealing for many of the low budget teams around FIRST.
-This also leaves the teams that do qualify for champs hugely unprepared. Most MN teams at champs will have ~20 plays, versus district teams that will have 40+ plays. EDIT: Many teams come into champs with 80+ plays

There definitely isn't a great solution to this problem, other than going to districts, but that has been addressed in the past.

[JohnSchneider]

You could hold local scrimmages and practice all the way through the season.

But that would also require an entire second robot because "lol 6 weeks build".

[TCMJ1816]

Originally Posted by JohnSchneider

You could hold local scrimmages and practice all the way through the season.

But that would also require an entire second robot because "lol 6 weeks build".

This is becoming much more common, I know of at least 10 practice bots and 5+ practice fields all around the state. I can't imagine more than about 25 teams make second robots.

[maxnz]

I have a feeling that Minnesota or the upper Midwest (MN, WI, IA, ND and/or SD) will become the next district within the next few years. We already have four regionals, two in Duluth and two in the twin cities, plus a regional in Iowa.

[FRCTeam3293]

Originally Posted by TCMJ1816

-This make the $5000 it costs to register for events pretty crazy, $625 a match isn't appealing for many of the low budget teams around FIRST.

Amen Brother.

[New Lightning]

Are most regionals only at 8 qualification matches. From what I understand most are at somewhere between 10-11.

[TCMJ1816]

Originally Posted by New Lightning

Are most regionals only at 8 qualification matches. From what I understand most are at somewhere between 10-11.

I am under the understanding that all 4 MN events will only be 8 matches per team. Looking at other regionals I think you are correct, the 2 I checked had 9 matches per team.

[Ginger Power]

I'd love to go to districts which would solve this problem. The issue is with key volunteers. Minnesota would have to do 12 events which is a lot of field setup/teardowns, and a lot more work for our key volunteers. I know our Volunteer Coordinator is crazy busy as is with 4 (5 if you count Iowa) events. We do have a great crop of college level volunteers on the way. When some of us start transferring into key volunteer positions, we'll be ready for the move to districts. Which will solve the problems.

A band-aid solution will be adding another regional which could happen within a year or two. This will allow more teams to do 2 events. The cost will still be crazy, but at least the opportunity will be there.

All we can do to help is recruit more volunteers, and get them trained into key volunteer positions!

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by Ginger Power

I'd love to go to districts which would solve this problem. The issue is with key volunteers. Minnesota would have to do 12 events which is a lot of field setup/teardowns, and a lot more work for our key volunteers. I know our Volunteer Coordinator is crazy busy as is with 4 (5 if you count Iowa) events. We do have a great crop of college level volunteers on the way. When some of us start transferring into key volunteer positions, we'll be ready for the move to districts. Which will solve the problems.

A band-aid solution will be adding another regional which could happen within a year or two. This will allow more teams to do 2 events. The cost will still be crazy, but at least the opportunity will be there.

All we can do to help is recruit more volunteers, and get them trained into key volunteer positions!

Welcome to the normal world before districts. Most teams worked their whole build season for a single Regional and 8 matches. Approximately 16 minutes of play time.

As for volunteers - it's time to force that back on the teams. The teams are the ones with the people resources, and that where you have to look to if you want to solve the problem. Announce districts well in advance of the season and explain each team is going to have to provide XX unskilled and 1 skilled individual (who will have to attend training, etc) for each event. After one rocky year, you'll end up with at least a couple dozen skilled individuals you can drag even deeper to make into skilled FTA's and the like.

[bjtheone]

Originally Posted by Tom Line

Welcome to the normal world before districts. Most teams worked their whole build season for a single Regional and 8 matches. Approximately 16 minutes of play time.

This is the biggest win for the district model. Up in the Frozen North (aka Canada) there are unfortunately not enough teams _yet_ to support the district model so we have regionals.

Given that, we have pretty much concluded that we need to (a) build two robots, and (b) attend 2 regionals in order to be able to test/iterate/improve the robot design and drive team. Which adds significantly to the costs of running a team. Attending one event, after all the work that is build season, seems like very little reward for all the work, but the second regional certainly adds a lot of cost.

Would love to be in a district model with weekend events, and robot access period instead of the craziness that the "practice" day at a regional can turn into.

[Bryan Herbst]

Originally Posted by TCMJ1816

I am under the understanding that all 4 MN events will only be 8 matches per team. Looking at other regionals I think you are correct, the 2 I checked had 9 matches per team.

It's all dependent on the number of teams registered.

Northern Lights at 60 teams could have snuck in 9 per team, but Lake Superior at 63 teams could not. We have the same problem in Minneapolis, so I would expect both events to stick to 8 again.

I also take issue with dividing the $5,000 up by the number of matches and valuing the competition on a per-match basis.

First, the $5,000 is your ticket into both your first event and the season as a whole. How much is the rest of the FRC season worth to you? Is build season worth $0? The KOP? Of course this "value" will be the same between both, but just saying that a regional costs $625/match doesn't take that into account.

A regional also comes with a lot of other differences- bigger venue, more teams, more money spent on the A/V setup, etc. How much are those things worth to you and your team?

Now if you really do just want to compare on a cost-per-match basis, I won't argue that districts are a better "deal." And yes, district teams do come into championships with more plays as well. I just don't personally believe it is quite that simple.

[TCMJ1816]

Originally Posted by Tanis

First, the $5,000 is your ticket into both your first event and the season as a whole. How much is the rest of the FRC season worth to you? Is build season worth $0? The KOP? Of course this "value" will be the same between both, but just saying that a regional costs $625/match doesn't take that into account.

You are totally right, I was more so looking at it as the cost per match as a second event. This obviously doesn't apply to most teams. That first $5000 is very worth it for all that it gets you, but the second $5000 is much harder to validate.

[maxnz]

Originally Posted by TCMJ1816

You are totally right, I was more so looking at it as the cost per match as a second event. This obviously doesn't apply to most teams. That first $5000 is very worth it for all that it gets you, but the second $5000 is much harder to validate.

Subsequent regionals cost $4000, but that's still a lot.

[EricLeifermann]

Teams should get a partial refund for every event that they attend that has less than 10 matches.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by EricLeifermann

Teams should get a partial refund for every event that they attend that has less than 10 matches.

Regionals should be required to post a "minimum matches played" so teams can shop around for events where they get the requisite bang for their buck. Failure to meet that number results in a refund to the teams. [1]


[1] Scheduled matches. Crap happens sometimes see AR this year. That shouldn't count.