Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.

[Sperkowsky]

I am going to preface this by saying I love this forum but, sometimes it can be brutal. The big reason why I am making this thread was stemmed from series of comments on my F4 thread.

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

often enough, kids can't express how they really feel without criticism. This has the potential to help a lot of people better their own teams.
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Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Exactly! That is something CD definitely showed me over the time I have been active year. Having students in a comfortable discussion format allows for their opinions to be expressed without any fear.

Originally Posted by rtfgnow

Are you saying that CD is not a comfortable place for students to voice their opinions? I'd like to hear more about this and how that could be changed. Maybe you could use that as a topic for a future show.

So, yea....

I joined CD over a year ago while my team was in a cycle of failure. No one knew what to do and it was a place to gain FRC insight. Being I talkative person in general I jumped straight into discussion. Probably not the wisest idea being my knowledge level at the time. One of my first posts was completely out of line and was just an unnecessary statement calling a 254 robot mentor built. Looking back I can not fathom why I would put such a statement on the internet but I did. I got as I could now predict a swarm of red dots. Knocking me well below into negative points. Especially since one of the people was Karthik. After realizing how dumb my post was I pmed all of the people that redded me to apologize. Except for the people who threated me....

Originally Posted by Karthik

Hi Sperkowsky,

Apology accepted. The reason I gave you a negative rep was not because of your opinion, rather that your post insulted and demeaned the hard work of the students on 254. Having worked with them closely, I know that they are fully involved with their robot, and as talented as any other group of FIRST students. Yes, they do have amazing mentors, but a by product of this is that these students have learned so much from these mentors. This is why they can consistently perform at such a high level.

I'm sorry that people felt the need to threaten you. As much as you post upset me, there's no reason for anyone to stoop to that level.

Thanks for taking the time to apologize. Good luck to you and your team this season!

So, I was now a student with my team number in my BIO sitting with 4 red dots. Realizing how bad it looked to my team I contacted Brandon Martus who helped me out and brought me into green. It was a second chance.

From there I continued posting quite a bit. Often times my opinion was disregarded. It was not that my posts were always bad it was just that some mentors had a hard time taking advice or discussing something with a student.

Despite me also getting greened quite a bit I still had my fair share of red dots. Some from respected mentors some not so respected. Ironically with quite a lot of dots at this point only one red one came from a student and it was very recently and did not actually make logical sense. There were a few dots that made sense. I may have went a little too far or said something rude but the majority were just from angry people with a different opinion.

I sometimes make jokes that my RP page is Christmas themed with the Red, Gray, and Green dots. Luckily my green dots outweigh my red ones at this point.

You may have noticed by now the thread I quoted earlier was from months ago. The reason why I started this thread was after a long discussion with the F4 community of students. We found that many of felt looked down upon from mentors and that the RP system was abused by quite a few of them.

If you are a new member here my advice is to re-read your posts and make sure they are both factual, and respectful. Do not post when angry and make sure to follow FIRST ideals at all times.

Lets make sure to make this a safe place for both students and mentors. Lets simply be kind and take a second to understand the intent of a post before reacting. Also I urge everyone to only red dot someone if they are being blatantly rude, or disrespectful. Someone accidentally quoting the wrong page of a manual or disagreeing with you respectfully are not a reason for a red dot. That is what grey dots are for.

- Sam

[JesseK]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

From there I continued posting quite a bit. Often times my opinion was disregarded. It was not that my posts were always bad it was just that some mentors had a hard time taking advice or discussing something with a student.

I don't think that mentors have a hard time taking good advice. I bet most of us have a hardened skepticism against "claims", "opinions", "thoughts" and "feelings" that are not backed up by data, facts, verified demonstrations or in some cases - common sense.

Then there's the time it would take to gather the data, facts, or verified demonstrations in order to incontrovertibly correct a bad opinion. Personally I don't respond to a lot of 'wrong' posts simply because of that.

All in all, the dot system is a way to PM someone and project "thoughts" and "feelings" that then hopefully correct behaviors. It's like a CD emoticon that serves as a +1, 'like' or Upvote/Downvote. Do you think that without the red dots you would have had the motivation to change at all?

edit - quick note after following the first few quote - this post is more about your journey on CD in general over the last year, rather than anything about your show. IMO, it's a great thing you're working so hard to keep the student side of FRC alive! I may send a few kids your way if you want more guests. Let me gauge interest.

[FRANKlybored]

There's a very old saying on these forums:

Originally Posted by Brandon Martus

They're just dots.

It's a message that I've learned to live by for a long time, both on and off these forums.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by JesseK

I don't think that mentors have a hard time taking good advice.

All in all, the dot system is a way to PM someone and project "thoughts" and "feelings" that then hopefully correct behaviors. It's like a CD emoticon that serves as a +1, 'like' or Upvote/Downvote. Do you think that without the red dots you would have had the motivation to change at all?

edit - quick note after following the first few quote - this post is more about your journey on CD in general over the last year, rather than anything about your show. IMO, it's a great thing you're working so hard to keep the student side of FRC alive! I may send a few kids your way if you want more guests. Let me gauge interest.

What I think may be the issue for some is the disconnect between a mentor student relationship on the Internet to one in real life. But overall I agree.

Also I fully support the cp more commonly known as rp system. Without it I probably would have changed quite a bit slower and it's definitely a good wakeup call once in a while.

Lastly yup this didn't have much to do with my show thanks though. If your students or anyone else wants to join apply here http://goo.gl/forms/vKi7FIqj1c we have about 40 members on our slack and it's extremely active.

[logank013]

I think it's become easier to be a student on CD as CD has matured me. When I first joined almost exactly a year ago, my posts were somewhat childish and I was told a few times from a lot of different people what should and shouldn't be said on here. As I've been on here, the reputation system and reading what other people say and how they say it has helped my posts become more thought out and higher quality stuff. I think the biggest thing is if you join, don't be scared away. Feel free to PM some frequent flyers on this site and ask them about what should and shouldn't be said. Most of them would be more than willing to help. Remember that not everyone is perfect (but this shouldn't be used as an excuse either!). I know I sometimes slip up every once in a while and say something that shouldn't have been said or should have been said in a better way. About a month ago, I said something that was received as completely different than I meant it to say. Looking back at it, I saw how people received it in a negative way. Just try to cut out those situations by reading your post from all angles before you post it.

Don't be afraid to write a post for 15 minutes and then not post it. I've done that before many times. I tend to read my posts 4 or 5 times before I post them. When I first joined, I never reread my posts and said some really really odd stuff.

[Nathan Streeter]

I'm very impressed by the OP... quality post reflecting a tremendous amount of maturity!

I do think that he is onto something real... many mentors have been doing this a long time and have a strong prejudice against someone new who thinks they're a hot-shot (or acts like they think they're the next Einstein champion). I've seen many people with a slight bit of immaturity get some serious red dots and negative posts just because they aren't in the "ChiefDelphi Group Think" world... and I've sometimes seen the highly experienced mentors from reputable teams with a "reputation beyond repute" get a lot more benefit of the doubt than I often think their post should receive.

Originally Posted by JesseK

I don't think that mentors have a hard time taking good advice. I bet most of us have a hardened skepticism against "claims", "opinions", "thoughts" and "feelings" that are not backed up by data, facts, verified demonstrations or in some cases - common sense.

I disagree.

I think many of "us motivated, mature mentors that embrace FIRST values" still often react with our feelings, play favorites, and are defensive about some/many things... not to mention the many adults in FIRST that don't necessarily embrace FIRST values and have the maturity you'd hope! I think, yes, we like to think we're highly empirical... but from my experience, many people claiming to be highly empirical and fact-driven are actually highly emotional and defensive.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by Nathan Streeter

...
I disagree.

I think many of "us motivated, mature mentors that embrace FIRST values" still often react with our feelings, play favorites, and are defensive about some/many things... not to mention the many adults in FIRST that don't necessarily embrace FIRST values and have the maturity you'd hope! I think, yes, we like to think we're highly empirical... but from my experience, many people claiming to be highly empirical and fact-driven are actually highly emotional and defensive.

Nathan - What you posted here isn't disagreement, unless you are trying to say that a non-trivial population of the sort of CD user Jesse described simply doesn't exist.

You both can easily be right. Many CD users can fall into Jesse's camp and many can fall into the one you described.

I think you are both right enough, and that you both are describing a part of the total CD universe.

[popnbrown]

I just wanted to post and say CD has certainly been part of my growth, as a student, volunteer and mentor. Reflecting on my first post ever, which began:

Well the title of the thread actually isnt exactly my problem

People being patient with me to teach me was definitely a motive for me to mentor now.

[ctt956]

Originally Posted by Nathan Streeter

I do think that he is onto something real... many mentors have been doing this a long time and have a strong prejudice against someone new who thinks they're a hot-shot (or acts like they think they're the next Einstein champion). I've seen many people with a slight bit of immaturity get some serious red dots and negative posts just because they aren't in the "ChiefDelphi Group Think" world... and I've sometimes seen the highly experienced mentors from reputable teams with a "reputation beyond repute" get a lot more benefit of the doubt than I often think their post should receive.

Why would you describe rookies as hot-shots? In the real world, some of the greatest innovations have been from rookies who saw a problem with the way things were being done and fixed it. Check out these quotes from experts in their fields. Rookies change the world.

[Nathan Streeter]

Originally Posted by ctt956

Why would you describe rookies as hot-shots? In the real world, some of the greatest innovations have been from rookies who saw a problem with the way things were being done and fixed it. Check out these quotes from experts in their fields. Rookies change the world.

I'm certainly not saying all rookies are what I was trying to describe with "hot shots." In fact VERY few are what I was trying to describe. I don't have anything against successful rookies or highly innovative rookies (or the rookies that are barely fielding a robot).

What I was trying to describe, were the young teams who seem to think that since they had a great match or won an event they should be at the top of everyone's perspective as the challenger to 1114, 254, 2056, or 148. Then they start commenting on LF posts, FRC top 25 threads, etc. that they should be in the spotlight... and honestly, I'm excited for those young successful teams, but my excitement for them often gets lost in my frustration with their obsession with their own success or their overestimation of their performance. Maybe the fault is really just with me being bothered by it.

That said, I can relate well to the teams that feel like they're performing well above the reputation they have in FRC at the regional or global level. When 1519 was a young team we had some success in our early years, more success around 2008 through 2010, then growing success afterward... and it takes a long time to become perceived as a successful team, particularly when you get to CMP and are trying to be picked by strong alliances. Partly, one just needs to learn that the ability to perform consistently at a high level is what separates the top tier from the tier that can sometimes perform nearly as well... and partly one needs to learn that building a reputation takes time.

[Rachel Lim]

I don't think it's hard to be a student on CD.

I think it's hard to communicate clearly, especially on the internet.

How you say something is often just as important as what you say.

[alephzer0]

Originally Posted by Rachel Lim

I don't think it's hard to be a student on CD.

I think it's hard to communicate clearly, especially on the internet.

How you say something is often just as important as what you say.

Yeah, it's quite difficult when you don't have body language and tone of voice. The internet also happens to be a cruel and unforgiving place.

[ATannahill]

Something that can be useful for everyone to keep in mind is that the English language is imperfect. My message start off as thoughts in my head which I then put into words via my keyboard. Someone else then interprets these words and from them creates thoughts in their heads. Are they thinking what I was thinking when I formed the words? It's doubtful. Body language and vocal tone can help in these situations, but we don't have that on CD. There is a currently active thread that seems to be having a good number of issues with this. If you feel that someone is not respecting you, feel free to send them a pm as to try to get better communication.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by BrennanB

This isn't really a student problem. It's a "people who say things that aren't productive problem" It's just that in general students have less maturity and are more prone to saying things that shouldn't really be said.

I mean... Welcome to real life. Your actions have consequences and you aren't a child anymore. These things happen in real life too. You should care about what effect the words that come out of your mouth. You shouldn't care so much that you avoid productive discussion in fear of saying something incorrect.

Ultimately like others have said, it's just dots. If you are here on CD to have lots of dots on a screen or be famous within the FIRST community, I think you are here for the wrong reasons.

Originally Posted by Rachel Lim

I don't think it's hard to be a student on CD.

I think it's hard to communicate clearly, especially on the internet.

How you say something is often just as important as what you say.

Just curious do not take this the wrong way. Were either you active on chiefdelphi as students. I should say I am not the only one with these feelings I have had over 10 students say the same thing.

[BrennanB]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Just curious do not take this the wrong way. Were either you active on chiefdelphi as students. I should say I am not the only one with these feelings I have had over 10 students say the same thing.

Yes. I was.

Like I said, many students don't really have the maturity to post productive/have constructive conversations. (even though some of them may think that they do)

Honestly that goes for mentors/adults too. I am aware of many students who felt 100% comfortable on CD.