Championships in 2017

[mAYple]

I am somewhat scared of how the Detroit and Houston Championships will be conducted, and how the competition will change now that two world champions will be awarded and jazz. The feeling I got from researching on reddit is that now no one will have a true championship experience?

Not sure if this has been talked about recently so sorry if this is rehashing anything from previous threads.

***St. Louis and Houston

[Hallry]

Originally Posted by mAYple

I am somewhat scared of how the Detroit and Houston Championships will be conducted

Just note that 2017 will be Houston and St. Louis. From 2018 through 2020 it will be Houston and Detriot.

[mAYple]

Originally Posted by Hallry

Just note that 2017 will be Houston and St. Louis. From 2018 through 2020 it will be Houston and Detriot.

Thanks for catching that !

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by mAYple

I am somewhat scared of how the Detroit and Houston Championships will be conducted, and how the competition will change now that two world champions will be awarded and jazz. The feeling I got from researching on reddit is that now no one will have a true championship experience?

Not sure if this has been talked about recently so sorry if this is rehashing anything from previous threads.

***St. Louis and Houston

I'd like to note that whether or not you have a true championship experience is somewhat dependent on yourself. If you're going to one of the Champs, you're going to a huge competition with many of the best teams in the country. If it doesn't feel like Champs because it's EVERY best team in the country, then that's that. But it's not like it ever is every best team in the country.

[SenorZ]

Its all a craps shoot.
We had a rough go in Newton, but had a great time as a team. Things broke, we fixed them. Matches were won/lost by a narrow margin.

AND we only got a chance to compete against one eighth of the teams attending championship.

You'll get the same chance next year during quals.

[Drakxii]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

But it's not like it ever is every best team in the country.

But we were getting to that point with districts now it won't happen.

Also I guess I just don't understand why it's good to have JRFLL/FLL/FTC championships overshadowed by FRC's. Why should these programs and students have their own championships (or atleast an FTC and FLL/JRFLL champs) where they are the ones on the main stage instead of a side show?

[maths222]

Originally Posted by Drakxii

Also I guess I just don't understand why it's good to have JRFLL/FLL/FTC championships overshadowed by FRC's. Why should these programs and students have their own championships (or atleast an FTC and FLL/JRFLL champs) where they are the ones on the main stage instead of a side show?

As a four-time FTC World Championship attendee (all four years FTC was in the Dome), I definitely support keeping the programs together. For me, the most amazing thing about Worlds is not just the bringing together of the top FTC teams, but also being a part of the whole FIRST championships; super-regionals offers a similar caliber of competition, but the experience is notably lesser off the filed.

To end with a post of mine from last year:

Originally Posted by maths222

I understand that most FRC participants don't care about seeing FTC and FLL, and to be honest, I probably wouldn't either if I participated in FRC. However, it is the other direction which is much more significant (at least from my perspective). One of the biggest things that made the World Championship so special and different from other tournaments, like super-regionals, was the opportunity to see and interact with FRC teams and robots, and by splitting the programs, the FTC championships immediately feel less big and magical.

[Liam Fay]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

I'd like to note that whether or not you have a true championship experience is somewhat dependent on yourself. If you're going to one of the Champs, you're going to a huge competition with many of the best teams in the country. If it doesn't feel like Champs because it's EVERY best team in the country, then that's that. But it's not like it ever is every best team in the country.

This is something I think people need to remember. Not being able to see all of your friends on other teams is a real frustration with the two champs system, and I get that. But when it comes to not being able to see all the good teams, there will still be plenty to make it feel like champs. Can you give me any combination of four divisions from this year that, put together and separated, wouldn't feel world class?

[hutchMN]

Originally Posted by Liam Fay

This is something I think people need to remember. Not being able to see all of your friends on other teams is a real frustration with the two champs system, and I get that. But when it comes to not being able to see all the good teams, there will still be plenty to make it feel like champs. Can you give me any combination of four divisions from this year that, put together and separated, wouldn't feel world class?

Champs doesn't feel the same since they have gone to 8 divisions. MSC is already more competitive than Champs. The reason why I'm inspired by FIRST was watching some of the best robots at Champs in 2013 (1114 and 118). FIRST is just diluting the Champs experience. If you have 30 robot points, it's better to make 3 things 10 points than it is to make 6 things 5 points; the same thing applies to Champs.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by hutchMN

Champs doesn't feel the same since they have gone to 8 divisions. MSC is already more competitive than Champs. The reason why I'm inspired by FIRST was watching some of the best robots at Champs in 2013 (1114 and 118). FIRST is just diluting the Champs experience. If you have 30 robot points, it's better to make 3 things 10 points than it is to make 6 things 5 points; the same thing applies to Champs.

I feel like a broken record on this point, but it seems like I keep having to say it.

As a team that has been to Champs 4 out of the last 4 years, I think you might be a little biased. 14% of FRC teams went to Champs this year. If you had your way, it'd be 9.5%. I'm guessing about half of them are regulars at champs. So in a 4 year span, maybe 25% of FRC gets to 1Champs. Which means that the competitiveness and truthiness of Champs is probably fairly irrelevant to something like 75% of FRC. And it only gets more irrelevant as the program grows in the future, especially as we move to districts and the random elements of wildcards and 2nd picks are eliminated. At some point it's going to turn into a huge expensive party for pretty much the same people every year. If PayneTrain worries about sponsors shelling out $15K to send a team to an "expo", I worry about sponsors shelling out millions of dollars to reach the same people every year. At some point you'd have to wonder about switching to a 2 or 4 year schedule to save money.

Also, I remember way back when Champs admission was changed from a free-for-all to a qualifying system. I'm pretty sure the howls of outrage are louder now only because there's like 5 times as many teams.

[Citrus Dad]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

I feel like a broken record on this point, but it seems like I keep having to say it.

As a team that has been to Champs 4 out of the last 4 years, I think you might be a little biased. 14% of FRC teams went to Champs this year. If you had your way, it'd be 9.5%. I'm guessing about half of them are regulars at champs. So in a 4 year span, maybe 25% of FRC gets to 1Champs. Which means that the competitiveness and truthiness of Champs is probably fairly irrelevant to something like 75% of FRC. And it only gets more irrelevant as the program grows in the future, especially as we move to districts and the random elements of wildcards and 2nd picks are eliminated. At some point it's going to turn into a huge expensive party for pretty much the same people every year. If PayneTrain worries about sponsors shelling out $15K to send a team to an "expo", I worry about sponsors shelling out millions of dollars to reach the same people every year. At some point you'd have to wonder about switching to a 2 or 4 year schedule to save money.

Also, I remember way back when Champs admission was changed from a free-for-all to a qualifying system. I'm pretty sure the howls of outrage are louder now only because there's like 5 times as many teams.

I understand the need to expand to 2 events to add teams. However FIRST HQ ignored several suggestions on how to distribute teams so as to create a single championship. That's where the the real problem is.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Citrus Dad

I understand the need to expand to 2 events to add teams. However FIRST HQ ignored several suggestions on how to distribute teams so as to create a single championship. That's where the the real problem is.

I've never been able to see how the super regional to 1Champs proposal addresses the concerns that 2Champs dilutes the field and inspiration. If 2Champs = 2 Super Regionals, then tacking 1Champs on the end of the Super Regionals seems like spending a boatload of cash, plus another week of time and school to extra super inspire an ever dwindling percentage of FRC teams. And, again, probably largely the same teams year in and out. If you're only talking about a barebones, competition only 1Champs strictly to determine who is King Of FRC for the season, then sure. Otherwise it seems like money that could be spent better elsewhere.

[mehermann]

Originally Posted by mAYple

I am somewhat scared of how the Detroit and Houston Championships will be conducted, and how the competition will change now that two world champions will be awarded and jazz. The feeling I got from researching on reddit is that now no one will have a true championship experience?

Not sure if this has been talked about recently so sorry if this is rehashing anything from previous threads.

***St. Louis and Houston

I'm a little upset at it too. If my team qualifies, we'll be going to Houston, but I have a lot of friends on teams that will most likely be going to St. Louis/Detroit, or don't know where they'll be going as of now, because FIRST hasn't released that information yet. So that kinda sucks, but I'm also really curious as to see how awarding Chairman's will be conducted. And then there's the fact that there will be essentially, 8 teams holding the title of "world champions."

[ATannahill]

Originally Posted by mehermann

I'm a little upset at it too. If my team qualifies, we'll be going to Houston, but I have a lot of friends on teams that will most likely be going to St. Louis/Detroit, or don't know where they'll be going as of now, because FIRST hasn't released that information yet. So that kinda sucks, but I'm also really curious as to see how awarding Chairman's will be conducted. And then there's the fact that there will be essentially, 8 teams holding the title of "world champions."

Can you tell me how you know you will be in Houston?

[AnnaCC]

Forgive me if this is already common knowledge, but I wondered if it's absolutely confirmed that the FRC itself will be split up? Or is it possible that FIRST might just be moving some of the programs to Houston? (for example, Jr. FLL, FLL, and FTC in Houston and FRC in St. Louis)