Legality of a Strategy/Bot Concept

[Sir_Fenwick]

So during the build season, as a bit of a joke, some people on our team were theorizing about different game strategies that were much different then the normal approach. One idea that emerged was a robot that could play defense in a way that has not been done this year.

OK, so picture a robot that is as light as possible. Perhaps one that uses 775's instead of CIMs, and lots of lexan and carbon fiber and aluminum and printed parts, just as light as possible. So now, imagine a robot that could somehow attach itself to the climbing bar in the of the tower without breaking the height limit rule. Now, what if this robot was driven to the base of the tower it was defending right after auto ended, and somehow managed to scale the tower without breaking the height rule. Once up, the body/chassis of the bot would block the center high goal, and fifteen inch arms would block the other two high goal windows. The attacking alliance would not be able to shoot into the high goals, and would be restricted to the low goals.

Now, if legal, this strategy would never get you to be a alliance captain, but if you where picked, since eliminations goes solely by win/loss, and you would prevent the opposition from scoring hardly any points in the tower, I think you would have a good chance at winning.

Now obviously there are flaws in this idea, but what I am wondering is if there is anyway you could pull this off. It goes without saying that building a robot that could climb without breaking the height rule (perhaps jumping up to the bar or suction cups to climb the tower?) is difficult, but i am wondering how or if it could be done. So when commenting, just try to humor the idea before saying its impossible.

[EricH]

Somebody WAS saying that they thought it could be done. And that they might have a cheesecake for it.

Your biggest problem is those darn bumpers. Relative to the robot, as it's sitting on the floor (or suddenly transposed to the floor) the bumpers need to be in the 4"-12" zone, at all times.

Pretty much, you'd have to jump up (ATTACHING to the field is covered by G12-C), so you've got to line up, jump up, and you better have a lightning-fast grabber...

The biggest issues I can see from gameplay are that you get one shot at using this--after that, everybody's going to be defending you even getting there.

[asid61]

Not sure about the legality of the strat, but the robot itself is legal.
This year, unlike previous years, flight was not expressly banned. The bumper zone applied as if the robot was on the ground, so flight or high jumps are fine- just don't leave anything hanging.
However, early in the season I calculated that to safely make a flier you would need at least 18 775pros to avoid burning them out just flying themselves and control system + battery around, and this isn't even including main breaker issues.

[roboruler]

Originally Posted by asid61

This isn't even including main breaker issues.

While the main-breaker would trip extremely quickly after the 775pros were started, even without the main-breaker the control system would brown-out and the battery would be unable to supply the necessary current to run the 775pro’s at their full speed

[BotDesigner]

1678 built a robot to complete this strategy.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...70&postcount=9

[roboruler]

Originally Posted by BotDesigner

1678 built a robot to complete this strategy.

1678 built a proof of concept prototype, they did not build a robot.

Originally Posted by RoboChair

We decided to give up the idea to go through with it for a a couple of reasons.
1. We didn't want to sink our valuable iteration time into R&D for something that would be very hard to have work.
2. In Bird Person culture this is what is considered an "Ungracious move".
Glad to see this loophole got closed up.

[Jcarbon]

If you build a robot that can jump, make sure to watch out for those G45 yellow cards!

[roboruler]

There was some discussion of this concept in the weeks before CMP.

I believe it was ruled illegal in an update, by not permitting robots to hang from their own alliances tower.

The low goal blocking robot was a similar concept:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...hlight=concept

[Richard Wallace]

G12 will make this strategy difficult to implement. Even if the robot could jump high enough, it is only permitted to react against opponent's rungs -- and those are on the tower they defend, not the one your robot is defending. So there is nothing your robot can legally grasp.

[Arhowk]

Firstly, it's geometrically impossible to scale without going outside of your height / frame perimeter restrictions.

Secondly, I am positive that you are not allowed to block the low goal intentionally with your fifteen inch extensions, I'm pretty sure that there is a same rule for high goals (though I wouldn't doubt it if it was never implemented for high goals since, well, it's impossible!

Edit: the proposed spring idea is not only near impossible to do but is also extremely dangerous and would probably net you a failed Inspection for safety reasons

[CalTran]

Originally Posted by Arhowk

Firstly, it's geometrically impossible to scale without going outside of your height / frame perimeter restrictions.

Not exactly geometrically impossible. You have 120" of perimeter to work with, +15" of extension on all sides, so if you made your robot like 58" long by like 2" wide you could probably ramp up to the bar or grab it with extensions. Unclear on whether you could maneuver this monstrosity around the field, but I've seen some pretty crazy driving feats before.

[J_B_Wood]

Originally Posted by CalTran

Not exactly geometrically impossible. You have 120" of perimeter to work with, +15" of extension on all sides, so if you made your robot like 58" long by like 2" wide you could probably ramp up to the bar or grab it with extensions. Unclear on whether you could maneuver this monstrosity around the field, but I've seen some pretty crazy driving feats before.

I think bumper rules prevented you from building a bot with a single side of length less than 8". Still allows you to build a 52" bot plus the 15" extension. Perhaps you could have another 15" extension pushing you off of the ground from the other side. Would definitely put you at the right height for the climbing bar.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by doughy_goods

I think bumper rules prevented you from building a bot with a single side of length less than 8".

Really. News to me.

The actual rule was that if a side of the frame perimeter (NOT, as many thought, a section of the frame) was < 8", the entire side needed to be covered with bumper.

[RoboChair]

Originally Posted by Arhowk

Firstly, it's geometrically impossible to scale without going outside of your height / frame perimeter restrictions.

Secondly, I am positive that you are not allowed to block the low goal intentionally with your fifteen inch extensions, I'm pretty sure that there is a same rule for high goals (though I wouldn't doubt it if it was never implemented for high goals since, well, it's impossible!

Edit: the proposed spring idea is not only near impossible to do but is also extremely dangerous and would probably net you a failed Inspection for safety reasons

This is incorrect, 1678 was briefly debating this idea and IT DOES WORK with the rules and without jumping. At least until the pre-champs rules update.

The requirement was to make a 45" long chassis robot and using a 15" extension in front and back drive up the wall to latch in place, then pivot up past 90 so your deployed flaps would block half of each side goal.

See the linked post to our prototype/proof of concept in the previous comments.

[FrankJ]

Originally Posted by Arhowk

...
Secondly, I am positive that you are not allowed to block the low goal intentionally with your fifteen inch extensions, I'm pretty sure that there is a same rule for high goals (though I wouldn't doubt it if it was never implemented for high goals since, well, it's impossible!...

The rule you are looking for is G25C.

C. blocking GOAL(S) while in contact with its own BATTER using anything outside its
FRAME PERIMETER

If you are not contacting the BATTER, you can block away. You need to read the rules if you are going to lawyer them.

I don't see it as an effective strategy since you are not stopping scoring and effectively forcing your alliance to play a robot down. You would also be open to end game fouls if you stayed there for the duration.