Quitting FRC for Vex?

[mrnoble]

I've heard rumblings of this for the past several years. My own team is quite happy continuing with FRC, but the other competition we have participated in since 2009 (BEST) will be no longer part of our plan for the coming school year, as we are intending to add Vex teams instead. I am sincerely curious if any other FRC teams are adding Vex, or are thinking about leaving FRC in favor of Vex. If you are and feel that you can share, would you mind saying what your reasons are, both positive (Vex is fun, for instance) and negative (the expense of FRC is too great, perhaps). Thanks.

[Landonh12]

I can see Vex being a good way to start feeder programs for FRC, but in no way do I see Vex replacing FRC. The amount of engineering that goes into FRC completely overshadows any reason to switch to Vex, unless your team has budget problems. I can see FTC teams switching to Vex, simply because they are similar.

[EmileH]

Originally Posted by Landonh12

I can see Vex being a good way to start feeder programs for FRC, but in no way do I see Vex replacing FRC. The amount of engineering that goes into FRC completely overshadows any reason to switch to Vex, unless your team has budget problems. I can see FTC teams switching to Vex, simply because they are similar.

The legendary Team 40 had VRC programs from 2004 on, but stopped their FRC program after 2010. They continue to participate in Vex.

[Aidan Cox]

Originally Posted by EmileH

The legendary Team 40 had VRC programs from 2004 on, but stopped their FRC program after 2010. They continue to participate in Vex.

2011 was their last year participating in FRC. A team from a smaller private school, their main sponsor provided them with a shop in another location. When that sponsor moved out of the area, they had no workplace suitable. They currently still work out of that school for the VEX stuff though. And Dan Larochelle is still involved with much of the VEX stuff that happens in the region.

[Peyton Yeung]

Originally Posted by Aidan Cox

2011 was their last year participating in FRC. A team from a smaller private school, their main sponsor provided them with a shop in another location. When that sponsor moved out of the area, they had no workplace suitable. They currently still work out of that school for the VEX stuff though. And Dan Larochelle is still involved with much of the VEX stuff that happens in the region.

I was wondering what happened to them since they were event finalists and event winners in 2011.

[Tom Line]

Put very simply, VEX is what FTC should have, and could have been.

This is one of those situations where FIRST should take a step back, re-evaluate FTC, and realize that VEX is a better program in many ways. Kill FTC, subsidize current FTC teams to move to VEX for one year, then partner with IFI to make VEX the cheaper alternative to FIRST around the world.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Tom Line

Put very simply, VEX is what FTC should have, and could have been.

What's sad is that VEX is what FTC was. For those of you who don't know, the initial iteration of FTC (then FVC) had a lot in common with VRC as it is today. The departure from the mostly COTS robotics competition model in favor of "FRC-mini" custom parts oriented builds in FTC really is quite a shame.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

What's sad is that VEX is what FTC was. For those of you who don't know, the initial iteration of FTC (then FVC) had a lot in common with VRC as it is today. The departure from the mostly COTS robotics competition model in favor of "FRC-mini" custom parts oriented builds in FTC really is quite a shame.

I would say that the proliferation of FRC mini robots in FTC stems from two factors: my experiences with the FTC kit make me think they probably never had a great kit to work with, and FTC in my opinion lacks an identity. What kids are we trying to reach? Middle schoolers, high schoolers, or both? Is it supposed to function as a bridge to FRC from FLL or is it a low cost FRC or a more involved FLL? Are we supposed to put FTC programs in schools that don't have any solid and consistent prospects for FRC? Is it supposed to be an intrasquad feeder for an FRC team? In trying to answer all of these questions, the program rarely adequately answers any of them.

I don't know if it's intentional or not, but the starter kit for VRC can rislistically play the VRC game for the year (at a low level). A new team can put that robot together and feel accomplishment but see where the design may not be their peak performer, so they can go back to the drawing board and order some more parts if they want to. I don't know what the FTC starter kit is but after seeing the design for res-q I would personally want it to be a revolver with 1 bullet.

FRC has an identity for FRC. Maneuvering from the larger powers in Manchester vs the actions of those that run FRC indicate to me that there is disagreement on the identity of FRC, but it is in some good hands. FLL has a great founding partner in the Lego group that has helped shape and maintain their identity. FTC didn't have that at all.

[s_forbes]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

(...) my experiences with the FTC kit make me think they probably never had a great kit to work with (...)

Sure they did; back when all of the parts were Vex, it was a pretty great kit!

The Vex robotics competition is amazing for how little it costs to compete. Whenever someone asks how to get their kids involved in robotics at a school with no team, Vex is usually my first suggestion.

There are lots of other robotics competitions out there as well that are just as fun as FIRST, but not as large of a budget drain. FRC is expensive.

[Michael Corsetto]

1678 has added Vex in the classroom setting as the basis for our "Intro to Robotics Engineering" class. This class was launched in the fall and we had over 100 new high school students across four periods in the class. The robust curriculum and engaging competition makes Vex an ideal program for the classroom setting. We will continue to use Vex as the basis for our high school intro class.

1678 is, for the first time, organizing 4-8 grade robotics summer camps in June. We are dropping our FLL support (after starting 23 teams!) and running Vex IQ at the summer camp. I am already impressed with the summer camp curriculum that Vex IQ offers, it is so simple the implement.

For our after-school elementary and junior high team, we are switching to Vex IQ starting now (parent meeting is June 3!). To ease the transition, we will likely buy kits for most or all of our existing FLL teams, and let them trade in their FLL kits which we will sell or donate to outside programs. The reasons to switch are many, but the main motivators are getting out of a broken NorCalFLL system and saving thousands of dollars in registration costs on a annual basis.

And, to be honest, if at some point we loose some critical teachers and/or mentors, I think the students on 1678 could be better served through 10-12 Vex Teams rather than 1 FRC team. We don't want to run both in the after school setting (rather, we are focusing on off-season projects and outreach efforts). However, without the solid mentor foundation we have, I believe our students would be better served building Vex robots.

When I look in my robotics education crystal ball, the future is Vex. It scales better, has far less financial overhead, and can be effectively run by organized parents out of a family living room. I don't know what the robotics landscape will look like in 10 years (#4champs?), but I would be willing to bet Vex is a huge part of that landscape.

-Mike

[TDav540]

Originally Posted by s_forbes

Sure they did; back when all of the parts were Vex, it was a pretty great kit!

The Vex robotics competition is amazing for how little it costs to compete. Whenever someone asks how to get their kids involved in robotics at a school with no team, Vex is usually my first suggestion.

There are lots of other robotics competitions out there as well that are just as fun as FIRST, but not as large of a budget drain. FRC is expensive.

Looking at a lot of these posts, there seem to be four reasons teams leave FIRST and/or join VEX:

1. FTC's kit isn't very good
2. FTC's (and FRC's) curriculum for teachers is nonexistent
3. FRC is too resource-intensive (space, time, money, etc.), and
4. The team(s) doesn't have enough student participation, teacher/mentor support to do FRC, and the VEX platform is easier to manage

I also wouldn't be surprised if current FRC teams are leaving for VEX because the switch to 2Champs conflicts with VEX worlds, though this a (generally) much smaller factor.

How do we continue to grow the FIRST program? I think FIRST organizers and the community need to realize large changes and additions are needed to the FTC to make it comparable to VEX. They need the curriculum, they need a better kit, they need to be better organized, and, most importantly, they need an identity in the FIRST landscape. To do this, more money, emphasis, thought, and time needs to be invested in that program from a development level.

FIRST could easily ignore that problem and simply keep the program as it is. That would be a significant oversight and a travesty, but it's the easiest path. Partnering with VEX, rather than trying to compete with it, would also be a good idea, if at all possible.

In terms of FRC, the problems are less massive but still crucial. The program needs to become cheaper. I'll be honest, I'm not sure how you do that, other than just getting more sponsorship or lowering the flashiness of the events (not an issue IMO), but they need to find a way to change the $5k number to $4k, $3k, or lower. Otherwise, the cost will continue to push teams out the door rather than welcome them in.

Additionally, FRC needs to take the same approach VEX does with teachers: combine it with a curriculum that can be taught in the classroom. There are ways to do this, and it needs to happen soon.

It would also be a good idea for FIRST to support/start AndyMark/VEX-type operations or shipping warehouses in Europe and Asia, to help improve the costs and operations for international teams. The increased expenses for international teams is hindering that growth heavily.

Overall, I think Greying Jay said it well:

Originally Posted by GreyingJay

The programs give different experiences to the students. I heard someone once say that "FRC is not about robotics. FRC is a life experience that involves robotics". And when I look back on what FRC is doing for the students I work with, I think that "learning to build/program robots" is actually pretty low on the list. Our students are learning more about how to outreach and connect with the community, how to work on teams, how to work on imbalanced teams, how to work under pressure, how to communicate an idea, how to manage their time, how large projects are structured and how each person fits into that. It's much more like how the real world operates.

But VEX still has enough other benefits that it's changing the robotics landscape, much more than FIRST. Slowly, but more quickly by the day, FRC is losing it's place as the pinnacle of high school robotics to VEX. If we and the people who lead FIRST want FRC to stay at the highest level, then we have to make some critical changes.

[GreyingJay]

Hey, thanks for the shout-out.

Originally Posted by TDav540

But VEX still has enough other benefits that it's changing the robotics landscape, much more than FIRST. Slowly, but more quickly by the day, FRC is losing it's place as the pinnacle of high school robotics to VEX. If we and the people who lead FIRST want FRC to stay at the highest level, then we have to make some critical changes.

If it was possible to make FRC competitions cheaper, and increase the build season period from 6 weeks to something longer, it would lower the entry barrier for all those schools/groups who can't stomach the two largest factors about FRC - namely, how much it costs (and how much sponsorship/fundraising is needed) and how insanely busy it gets from January to April just to field a working robot.

(Our parent feedback from this year was essentially - "holy cow we didn't realize just how much Billy was going to be in for - it was worth it in the end but holy cow!")

I recognize it may not BE possible. It would definitely change the competition landscape. The calendar logistics aside, a longer build season would allow the rookies to actually get a robot done but then the 1114's and 254's of the world would have that much more time to build something amazing. It could lower the entry barrier but widen the competition gap, forcing the rookies to work that much harder anyway just to keep up.

In the end, I think there's definitely a place for both programs.

[Christopher149]

Originally Posted by TDav540

most importantly, they [FTC] need an identity in the FIRST landscape.

I haven't seen anyone in this thread mention it, but in Michigan, that identity for FTC is "middle school".

[Doug G]

We choose to do both and throw in VexIQ and FLL while we're at it! Yes this is ambitious, but we've been growing and continue to grow each year and have a very supportive district. No need to pit FRC vs Vex... they have different strengths and weaknesses, figure out which fits your needs the best. So here's what we do and it is always a work in progress...

Freshman
Class: "Engineering and Manufacturing Technology" which has as it's fall semester project a Vex Robot for that years competition.
Vex Teams: 9 in 2015-2016 (only 8 competed)
Students: 42 this year
FRC component: (optional) about 1/3 choose to stay after school/weekends to do FRC.

Sophomore
Class: "Principles of Engineering & Robotics", class is more focused on Design, CAM, Programming, Arduino projects, and any simple FRC offseason projects.
Students: 18 this year
Vex component: Hosting the Vex tournament at our school and our local middle school.
VexIQ/FLL component: Mentor VexIQ/FLL teams at local elementary schools.
FRC: Almost all students stay after school/weekends to do FRC

Junior/Senior Year:
Class: "Automation Engineering", capstone class focused on advanced projects with FRC theme, PLC programming, Advanced CAD/CAM
Students: 11 this year
Vex component: Host Vex Tournament and Mentor Vex teams at local middle school
VexIQ component: Mentor VexIQ/FLL teams at local elementary schools. Host VexIQ/FLL event
FRC: All do FRC All the Time

Senior year:
Class: AP Comp Sci or Advanced Manufacturing (for 16-17)
Students: 2 this year
Vex component: Host Vex Tournament and Mentor Vex teams at local middle school
VexIQ component: Mentor VexIQ/FLL teams at local elementary schools. Host VexIQ/FLL event
FRC: FRC All the Time

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by EmileH

The legendary Team 40 had VRC programs from 2004 on, but stopped their FRC program after 2010. They continue to participate in Vex.

VRC didn't exist in 2004. There was a pilot event at the 2005 FIRST Championship event, and a pilot season in 2005-06. What is now the VEX EDR system was at first a RadioShack exclusive, released sometime after the 2005 pilot event and before the next season.